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Re: [dsg] Re: Off to mind-made abstract land of paramattha dhammas

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  • Sukinder
    Hi Sarah (and Pt), ... Sukin: Yes. And if someone decides to become a recluse or ordain, the kilesas go with him. But I think that I am missing your point....?
    Message 1 of 339 , Oct 8, 2013
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      Hi Sarah (and Pt),

      >Suk: I believe that unless the accumulated understanding of the samatha kind is already very high, for example at the level where one sees the dustiness of the household life, 
      S: ...the dust just being the kilesa....

      Sukin: Yes. And if someone decides to become a recluse or ordain, the kilesas go with him. But I think that I am missing your point....?

      >Suk: vipassana bhavana will happen more often and any tendency to develop kusala of other kinds will lessen. This is because as understanding grows the confidence related to the Path also grows, meaning all conditioned dhammas become object of the development of understanding. 
      S: I don't think we can generalise like this. It depends on conditioned accumulations. For some when they hear about dhammas as anatta, it makes sense and there is keen investigation and development of understanding of dhammas. For others, it makes very little sense, but there may be accumulations to understand about kusala and akusala, about the value of metta when it arises, for example, but no understanding of such dhammas as anatta.

      Sukin: It seems to me that this is due exactly to lack of understanding and confidence. Besides, for the "development" of samatha to happen more easily, as Pt initially suggested, this would be more than just occasional seeing the value of different kinds of kusala would it not?

      This is why the Buddha stressed the different accumulations.

      Sukin: Laymen vs. Bhikkhus and Dry Insighters vs. those who develop together with Jhana. In all cases the Path involves the progression from saccannana, to kiccannana, to katannana.

      >On the other hand, the understanding and confidence related to samatha bhavana, although this does not diminish, will not however take priority over vipassana. 
      S: As Tam B pointed out, it's not a matter of choice or selection or giving of priority even now. It depends what is conditioned and whenever any kusala arises there is samvara sila - guarding of the sense doors. 

      I think that what you are stressing, however, is that the more understanding there is of realities, the more confidence there is that such (vipassana) understanding is the "one way", the only right path leading to the realization of nibbana and eradication of defilements.

      Sukin: Yes, hence the reference to "priority" did not imply choice.
      But I may still be wrong, so please point out any mistake in reasoning in the below:

      Right Understanding from the very beginning include that of the Path i.e. The Fourth Noble Truth. This implies recognition of what is "not" the Path, samatha / Jhana included. Kusala is as much a fleeting dhamma to be known as are akusala and abyakata dhammas. Detachment accompanying all instances of Right Understanding, must mean growing detachment towards all classes of dhammas. The combined effect for those who have heard and understood the Dhamma therefore, is more development of the vipassana kind than samatha.

      Sending this from my iPad. Don't know how it is going to come out.


    • ptaus1
      Hi Jon, ... p: Yes, I think survival was my rendering of what you had said, which was probably means of subsistence . ... p: Yes, that makes sense. Best
      Message 339 of 339 , Oct 20, 2013
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        Hi Jon,

        > J:  I think that's pretty much how the discussion went.  Not sure if I used the word 'survival', but if I did I think I would now prefer to say 'means of subsistence'.  

        p: Yes, I think "survival" was my rendering of what you had said, which was probably "means of subsistence".

        > J: Just to supplement a little, I remember it being explained that for a monk, his livelihood is the going on his alms round.
        p: Yes, that makes sense.
        Best wishes
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