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[dsg] RE: TA on aasava

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  • Alberto
    Dear Phil, Kevin, ... Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 8, 2013
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      Dear Phil, Kevin,

      > Phil: "Panna is there instead of aasasva..." Aasava is the alusala that is always bubbling up in response to what is seen heard tasted smelled touched? Phil
      >
      >
      >
      > Kevin: Visuddhimagga (ХХII, 56):
      >
      > "Cankers (āsava): ... is a term for greed for sense desires, greed for becoming, wrong view, and ignorance, because of the exuding (savana) [of these defilements] from unguarded sense-doors like water from cracks in a pot in the sense of constant trickling, or because of their producing (savana) the suffering of the round of rebirths."


      Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the sore of the self after seeing's just seen visible object (also when it's an unpleasant one, I think).
      Unless understanding is strong enough to directly know the non self nature of all realities, thus conditioning the 'guarding' of these doors.

      Alberto
    • kevinf596
      Alberto: Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the sore of the
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 8, 2013
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        Alberto: Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the sore of the self after seeing's just seen visible object (also when it's an unpleasant one, I think).


        Unless understanding is strong enough to directly know the non self nature of all realities, thus conditioning the 'guarding' of these doors.


        Kevin:  Well said!

        Kevin

      • philofillet
        Hi Alberto, Kevin, group. Are these akin to what are called medium level defilements? Nottransgression level but appearing more clearly than anusayas? I
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 8, 2013
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          Hi Alberto, Kevin, group.Are these akin to what are called medium level defilements? Nottransgression level but appearing more clearly than anusayas?I remember when I used to listen to mahasi sayadaw style Dhamma talks. They believe that through mindfulness meditation they can observe the arising of these medium level defilements and prevent them. So they walk around in slow-motion watching the mind to prevent the arising of these medium level defilements by noting them of course. It is easy to understand why they want to do that. Or why they think it is effective. But the only real guarding of the sense doors is performed by panna with detachment from eagerly wanting to guard the sense doors (wanting which only reinforces belief in self that can control and prevent the arising of deilements. )Phil
        • sarahprocterabbott
          Hi Kevin & Alberto, Yes, good team-work. The asavas of lobha, ditthi and avijja are so subtle that they ooze out all the time unknowingly as soon as there is
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 9, 2013
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            Hi Kevin & Alberto, 


            Yes, good team-work. The asavas of lobha, ditthi and avijja are so subtle that they ooze out all the time unknowingly as soon as there is seeing or hearing or other sense experiences.


            Metta


            Sarah


            >Alberto: Yes, avijja, with or without ditthi and/or lobha (but not dosa and other kilesas, not yet), conditioned to ooze out instantly from the sore of the self after seeing's just seen visible object (also when it's an unpleasant one, I think).


            >Unless understanding is strong enough to directly know the non self nature of all realities, thus conditioning the 'guarding' of these doors.


            >Kevin:  Well said!

          • sarahprocterabbott
            Hi Phil, ... ... S: Anusayas don t arise at all - they are latent. Asavas are very subtle - they arise but don t appear and aren t known at all. So, there are
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 9, 2013
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              Hi Phil, 


              >P: Are these akin to what are called medium level defilements? Nottransgression level but appearing more clearly than anusayas? 
              ...
              S: Anusayas don't arise at all - they are latent. Asavas are very subtle - they arise but don't appear and aren't known at all. So, there are many degrees of defilements, even of so-called 'medium defilements' and this is why different names are given to them - asavas, yoga, ogha, kilesa, nivarana. Nivarana are more apparent, but usually not of the degree of strong defilements that condition akusala kamma patha.
              ...

               >P: I remember when I used to listen to mahasi sayadaw style Dhamma talks. They believe that through mindfulness meditation they can observe the arising of these medium level defilements and prevent them. So they walk around in slow-motion watching the mind to prevent the arising of these medium level defilements by noting them of course. 
              ...
              S: No understanding at all of the way asavas arise in an instant as soon as there is seeing or hearing, long before there is any idea about anything.
              ...
              >P: It is easy to understand why they want to do that. Or why they think it is effective. 
              ...
              S: Lobha?
              ...
              >P: But the only real guarding of the sense doors is performed by panna with detachment from eagerly wanting to guard the sense doors (wanting which only reinforces belief in self that can control and prevent the arising of deilements. )
              ...
              S: Agreed!

              Metta

              Sarah
              p.s Sukin seems to be able to send messages OK from his i-pad - that's another option for you. If you're looking for a computer, I do find the macbook air to be very good.
              =======
            • philofillet
              Hi Sarah Thanks for your explanation about defilements. P: It is easy to understand why they want to do that. Or why they think it is effective. ... S: Lobha?
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 9, 2013
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                Hi SarahThanks for your explanation about defilements.
                >P: It is easy to understand why they want to do that. Or why they think it is effective.
                ... S: Lobha?----------------Ph: There has to be ditthi as well, right.I am leaning towards iPad with an attachable keyboard cover. I use Naomi's Air Book sometimes but somehow I don't really like it. It's strange the way I have been brainwashed into thinking that what I buy has to be an Apple.Anyways idle chatter. Hard to understand why it's akusala kamma patha.Phil
              • Alberto
                Hi Phil, (Kevin), ... I ve found this (on Jan 16th 2013 - nn, 10m) - Alberto Than Acharn: Fermented [aasava]? from moment to moment Lukas: From long time ago
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 9, 2013
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                  Hi Phil, (Kevin),

                  > Hi Alberto, Kevin, group. Are these akin to what are called medium level defilements? Nottransgression level but appearing more clearly than anusayas?

                  I've found this (on Jan 16th 2013 - nn, 10m) - Alberto

                  Than Acharn: Fermented [aasava]? from moment to moment

                  Lukas: From long time ago

                  TA: yes, and long time ahead too, far ahead

                  Sarah: we're talking about anusayas accumulated in each citta, they condition the aasava, the fermentations, to arise <...>

                  TA: anusaya [latent tendencies] cannot appear at all, while aasava can appear.
                  Akusala arises, of what degree? as aasava, or as nivaarana [hindrance], or as kilesa

                  Q:<?>aasava<?>

                  TA: more subtle. that's why in (suttanta) tipitaka doesn't talk about the anusaya, but talks about aasava, like the arahatta has no aasava [khinaasava], which (also) means no anusaya, so instead of saying he has no anusaya sometimes it's said he has no aasava, because aasava can appear, while anusaya cannot appear at all

                  S: nivaarana [hindrance] is always stronger akusala (than aasava)

                  TA: right

                  Lukas: which ones are nivaarana?

                  TA: kaama-chanda byapada thina-middha uddhacca-kukkuccha

                  Q: They're an hindrance to samatha and not to vipassana

                  TA: because vipassana can understand. but I think that we just want to remember the terms, but what about the understanding of this moment, because we're talking about the five nivaaranas; which one is this moment? or the other one and so forth; or aasava, or kilesa - only the developed pa~n~na can know, but we learn to understand moment with awareness and moment without awareness, just to understand more about even aasava or nivaarana; because usually in a day we think about just that object so much in a day, rather than to other things, and at that moment we don't need to call that nivaarana, but they're all nivaarana, never leave one to be at rest.
                • kevinf596
                  Hello again Alberto, Phil, Sarah, all, ... ... S: Agreed! Kevin: Yes! It can only be the function of paññā. Kevin Hello again Alberto, Phil, Sarah, all,
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 9, 2013
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                    Hello again Alberto, Phil, Sarah, all,


                     >P: But the only real guarding of the sense doors is performed by panna with detachment from eagerly wanting to guard the sense doors (wanting which only reinforces belief in self that can control and prevent the arising of deilements. )

                    ...
                    S: Agreed!

                    Kevin:  Yes! It can only be the function of paññā.

                    Kevin



                  • kevinf596
                    Hi again Alberto, Phil, Sarah, all, ... Kevin: Yes, normally we are normally lost. .... Kevin
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 9, 2013
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                      Hi again Alberto, Phil, Sarah, all,


                      >Alberto wrote:


                      >TA: because vipassana can understand. but I think that we just want to remember the terms, but what about the understanding of this moment, because we're talking about the five nivaaranas; which one is this moment? or the other one and so forth; or aasava, or kilesa - only the developed pa~n~na can know, but we learn to understand moment with awareness and moment without awareness, just to understand more about even aasava or nivaarana; because usually in a day we think about just that object so much in a day, rather than to other things, and at that moment we don't need to call that nivaarana, but they're all nivaarana, never leave one to be at rest. 


                      Kevin:  Yes, normally we are normally lost. ....

                      Kevin

                    • sarahprocterabbott
                      Hi Kevin, Alberto & all, ... ... S: The last example of nivaarana, when we re obsessed with a problem, for example, clearly shows the stronger and apparent
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 11, 2013
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                        Hi Kevin, Alberto & all, 


                        >Alberto wrote:


                        >TA: because vipassana can understand. but I think that we just want to remember the terms, but what about the understanding of this moment, because we're talking about the five nivaaranas; which one is this moment? or the other one and so forth; or aasava, or kilesa - only the developed pa~n~na can know, but we learn to understand moment with awareness and moment without awareness, just to understand more about even aasava or nivaarana; because usually in a day we think about just that object so much in a day, rather than to other things, and at that moment we don't need to call that nivaarana, but they're all nivaarana, never leave one to be at rest. 


                        >Kevin:  Yes, normally we are normally lost. ....
                        ...
                        S: The last example of nivaarana, when we're obsessed with a problem, for example, clearly shows the stronger and apparent akusala, unlike when it is just aasava arising after seeing or hearing. "never leave one to be at rest" - one thinks it is the object thought about that is the problem, but it's the nivaarana - the strong attachment or anger or worry, for example. However, they are all just dhammas, not self, and can be known as such when they appear so commonly during the day.

                        Thanks for the helpful quotes, Alberto.

                        Metta

                        Sarah
                        =====
                      • Alberto
                        Hi Sarah, Kevin, all, ... I was looking up at Sutta nipata (Parayana vagga, Ajita questions) commentary, which I think also deals with this aspect (the object
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 11, 2013
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                          Hi Sarah, Kevin, all,

                          > S: The last example of nivaarana, when we're obsessed with a problem, for example, clearly shows the stronger and apparent akusala, unlike when it is just aasava arising after seeing or hearing. "never leave one to be at rest" - one thinks it is the object thought about that is the problem, but it's the nivaarana - the strong attachment or anger or worry, for example. However, they are all just dhammas, not self, and can be known as such when they appear so commonly during the day.

                          I was looking up at Sutta nipata (Parayana vagga, Ajita questions) commentary, which I think also deals with this aspect (the object of thinking not being a real issue in the understanding of realities)
                          In the third stanza the deva says that the streams (cmy of tanha etc.) flow all over (cmy towards the ayatanas of visible object etc. [ruupaadiaayatanesu]), and ask the Budhha what can hinder (cmy protect from [rakkhaati]/partially abandon [saavasesappahaanam]) them, and what can cut them off completely [anavasesappahaanam].
                          The Buddha replies that sati (cmy connected with vipassana [vipassanaayutta]) is the hindrance to the streams, and that pa~n~na (cmy maggapa~n~na) is what cut them off altogether.

                          Alberto
                        • gazita2002
                          Hallo Alberto, thanx for these posts, wonderful to read. the Buddha replies that sati(connected with vipassana) is the hindrance to the streams and that
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 12, 2013
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                            Hallo Alberto,


                            thanx for these posts, wonderful to read.


                            " the Buddha replies that sati(connected with vipassana) is the hindrance to the streams and that panna (maggapanna) is what cuts them off altogether" - thus we can see why T.A. is very consistent with encouraging her listeners to develop sattipatthana now.

                            As Sarah mentions, we think it is the object thought about that is the problem. However, if there were no Lobha, Dosa or Moha the thinking would be totally different, the objects the same, the experience - citta- the same but no big, long stories about me, mine, my self, 


                            patience, courage and good cheer

                            azita



                            ---In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, <sprlrt@...> wrote:

                            Hi Sarah, Kevin, all,

                            > S: The last example of nivaarana, when we're obsessed with a problem, for example, clearly shows the stronger and apparent akusala, unlike when it is just aasava arising after seeing or hearing. "never leave one to be at rest" - one thinks it is the object thought about that is the problem, but it's the nivaarana - the strong attachment or anger or worry, for example. However, they are all just dhammas, not self, and can be known as such when they appear so commonly during the day.

                            I was looking up at Sutta nipata (Parayana vagga, Ajita questions) commentary, which I think also deals with this aspect (the object of thinking not being a real issue in the understanding of realities)
                            In the third stanza the deva says that the streams (cmy of tanha etc.) flow all over (cmy towards the ayatanas of visible object etc. [ruupaadiaayatanesu]), and ask the Budhha what can hinder (cmy protect from [rakkhaati]/partially abandon [saavasesappahaanam]) them, and what can cut them off completely [anavasesappahaanam].
                            The Buddha replies that sati (cmy connected with vipassana [vipassanaayutta]) is the hindrance to the streams, and that pa~n~na (cmy maggapa~n~na) is what cut them off altogether.

                            Alberto
                          • Alberto
                            Hi Azita, Thanks for your comments; the cmy specifies the ayatanas of visible object etc. (i.e. realities only) as the objects towards which the streams of
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 13, 2013
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                              Hi Azita,

                              Thanks for your comments; the cmy specifies the ayatanas of visible object etc. (i.e. realities only) as the objects towards which the streams of akusala dhammas flow and which satipatthana hinders and lokuttarra magga cuts off entirely, leaving out the object of thinking (concepts, which are not included in the ayatanas), as Ajahn consistently reminds us.

                              Alberto

                              > " the Buddha replies that sati(connected with vipassana) is the hindrance to the streams and that panna (maggapanna) is what cuts them off altogether" - thus we can see why T.A. is very consistent with encouraging her listeners to develop sattipatthana now.
                              > As Sarah mentions, we think it is the object thought about that is the problem. However, if there were no Lobha, Dosa or Moha the thinking would be totally different, the objects the same, the experience - citta- the same but no big, long stories about me, mine, my self,
                              >
                            • sarahprocterabbott
                              Hi Phil, ... ... S: Yes, the bubbly caldron of fermenting aasavas, bubbling up even in the sense door processes as soon as an object is seen and so on. Panna
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 13, 2013
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                                Hi Phil, 


                                >P:"Panna is there instead of aasasva..."Aasava is the alusala that is always bubbling up in response to what is seen heard tasted smelled touched?Phil
                                ...
                                S: Yes, the bubbly caldron of fermenting aasavas, bubbling up even in the sense door processes as soon as an object is seen and so on. 

                                Panna can only develop gradually, understanding gross and middling defilements long before there can be any understanding of the much more subtle fermenting asavas, oozing out all the time.

                                Aeons of work for panna!

                                Metta

                                Sarah
                                ======
                              • sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com
                                Hi Alberto, ... In the third stanza the deva says that the streams (cmy of tanha etc.) flow all over (cmy towards the ayatanas of visible object etc.
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 14, 2013
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                                  Hi Alberto,

                                  Thanks for sharing:

                                  >A:I was looking up at Sutta nipata (Parayana vagga, Ajita questions) commentary, which I think also deals with this aspect (the object of thinking not being a real issue in the understanding of realities)
                                  In the third stanza the deva says that the streams (cmy of tanha etc.) flow all over (cmy towards the ayatanas of visible object etc. [ruupaadiaayatanesu]), and ask the Budhha what can hinder (cmy protect from [rakkhaati]/partially abandon [saavasesappahaanam]) them, and what can cut them off completely [anavasesappahaanam].
                                  The Buddha replies that sati (cmy connected with vipassana [vipassanaayutta]) is the hindrance to the streams, and that pa~n~na (cmy maggapa~n~na) is what cut them off altogether.
                                  ...
                                  S: I'm always really glad to read anything from the commentary to Sn, as not available in English.

                                  So, keep sharing extracts that you translate!

                                  I'm also reminded of MN 117 where we also read about the undersanding with asavas and without asavas, referring to the respective lokuttara path consciousness that eradicates them at various stages.

                                  Metta

                                  Sarah
                                  ======


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