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RE: Re: [dsg] RE: Got a job

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  • sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com
    Hi Jagkrit (Kevin & Phil), Jagkrit: Interesting point for further discussing. I m not sure how Kevin knew he got a job. By reading a acceptance letter or
    Message 1 of 25 , Sep 26 2:32 AM
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      Hi Jagkrit (Kevin & Phil), 


      >Jagkrit: Interesting point for further discussing. I'm not sure how Kevin knew he got a job. By reading a acceptance letter or hearing his approval from the phone. Seeing or hearing which objects relating to this good news should be kusala vipaaka Cittas. As same as we read his good news, it is our kusala vipaaka Cittas to see the visible object relating to friend's good news.
      ...
      S: This is the conventional idea of kusala and akusala results of kamma. 

      When hearing sounds on the phone or seeing visible objects whilst reding a letter, who can say whether the sound or visible object at any moment is kusala or akusala vipaka? Like now, there is seeing of visible object - kusala or akusala vipaka? No way of knowing and no use in speculating.

      After hearing the sounds or seeing the visible objects, there is thinking about the nimitta, thinking about what is taken for the "good news", and we call it good results. Actually, it's just thinking with lobha and pleasant feeling as opposed to thinking with dosa and unpleasant thinking on account of ideas about what has been heard or seen. 

      This is why the ignorant worldling is so susceptible to the worldly conditions, susceptible to accumulations of lobha, dosa and moha. 
      ...

      >J: In conventional view, Jobs and careers success is one of the worldly conditions or Lokka-dhamma 8; gain and loss, fame and ill-fame, blame and praise, happiness and pain. They all are conditioned dhammas by good deed and bad deed. We can acknowledge that because of Kevin's kusala karma in the past producing good result for him to get his job as he wishes. 
      ...
      S: I understand your point, but 'job', 'career success' are worldly ideas based on what is experienced through the senses. We cannot say that 'job' and 'career success' are the results of good kamma in an absolute sense. We need to consider the meaning of kamma and vipaka and kammaja rupas very precisely.

      It's like when friends talk about the floods in Thailand or difficulties faced being the results of akusala kamma. Again, just a conventional idea - nothing to do with realities.
      ....

      >J:There can be mudita Citta or joy to his wholesome karma as good deed and good result.
      ...
      S: There can be mudita, wholesome joy in his good fortune - he has what he would like. However, it's only an idea about good deeds and results at such a time - not any understanding of kamma and vipaka.
      ...
      >J: As far as we have right understanding about karma and result of karma, worldly conditions can be very good example to further our study for more and more understanding, instead of becoming attachment or aversion to them.
      ....
      S: So what about good kamma now? This is what can be understood. At moments of wise considering of dhamma now, it is good kamma. At moments of sharing or giving now, it is good kamma.

      As for result, can there be understanding now? Now there is seeing. Is there any understanding of seeing now? If so, it is the very beginning of understanding the result of kamma, just for a moment.

      Yes, usually there is attachment and aversion on account of worldly conditions. This is just thinking about what has been seen and heard or experienced through the body-sense or taste or smell. For the wise, there is understanding that what is experienced through the sense doors are just fleeting realities of no significance at all. 

      I think these are some of the points that Phil was suggesting.

      Metta

      Sarah
      ======
    • Jagkrit
      Dear Sarah ... JK: I find this sutta where The Lord Buddha explained how to understand worlding conditions reflecting to their impermanent. This can be
      Message 2 of 25 , Sep 26 6:54 AM
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        Dear Sarah

        ...
        S: I understand your point, but 'job', 'career success' are worldly ideas based on what is experienced through the senses. We cannot say that 'job' and 'career success' are the results of good kamma in an absolute sense. We need to consider the meaning of kamma and vipaka and kammaja rupas very precisely.

        It's like when friends talk about the floods in Thailand or difficulties faced being the results of akusala kamma. Again, just a conventional idea - nothing to do with realities.

        JK: I find this sutta where The Lord Buddha explained how to understand worlding conditions reflecting to their impermanent. This can be beneficial even they are only conventional idea.

        AN 8.6 
        PTS: A iv 157 
        Lokavipatti Sutta: The Failings of the World
        translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

        "Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.

        "Loss arises... Status arises... Disgrace arises... Censure arises... Praise arises... Pleasure arises...

        "Pain arises. He reflects, 'Pain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.

        "His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind does not remain consumed with the pain.

        "He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

        Anumodhana 

        Jagkrit

      • sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com
        Dear Jagkrit (Phil, Kevin & all), We need to consider suttas carefully - we know that whatever the Buddha taught was referring to realities, dhammas and the
        Message 3 of 25 , Sep 26 10:13 AM
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          Dear Jagkrit (Phil, Kevin & all), 


          We need to consider suttas carefully - we know that whatever the Buddha taught was referring to realities, dhammas and the understanding of these:


          >>S: I understand your point, but 'job', 'career success' are worldly ideas based on what is experienced through the senses. We cannot say that 'job' and 'career success' are the results of good kamma in an absolute sense. We need to consider the meaning of kamma and vipaka and kammaja rupas very precisely.

          It's like when friends talk about the floods in Thailand or difficulties faced being the results of akusala kamma. Again, just a conventional idea - nothing to do with realities.

          >JK: I find this sutta where The Lord Buddha explained how to understand worlding conditions reflecting to their impermanent. This can be beneficial even they are only conventional idea.
          ...
          S: This would only be worldly, conventional thinking. Anyone can say that the floods or a job are impermanent. When the Buddha taught about impermanence, he was referring to the impermanence of realities, dhammas, the unsatisfactoriness of dhammas and the lack of control of such dhammas due to their nature of anatta.
          ...


          >AN 8.6 
          PTS: A iv 157 
          Lokavipatti Sutta: The Failings of the World
          translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

          "Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.

          "Loss arises... Status arises... Disgrace arises... Censure arises... Praise arises... Pleasure arises...

          "Pain arises. He reflects, 'Pain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.

          ....

          S: Absolute realities. Painful feeling arising with bodily consciousness (akusala vipaka) can be known now if it appears. Unlike in the case of seeing (always accompanied by neutral feeling), when painful feeling appears, it must be akusala vipaka to experience tangible object at that moment - this moment!

          In other words, they are the dhammas that are being pointed to that are to be known - different cittas, cetasikas and rupas which appear now at such times of gain and loss etc. If nothing is understood about dhammas, we just continue to think in our ordinary way about floods and jobs as bad and good results and think about the impermanence of these without undersanding anything about the Buddha's Teachings.

          ....>"His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind does not remain consumed with the pain.

          ....

          S: For the wise, they know that seeing or bodily consciousness are and accompanying mental factors are just momentary dhammas, results of kamma. They realise that the real problems are the subsequent thinking with lobha, dosa and moha on account of these. Remember the two arrows!

          ...

          >"He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

          >Anumodhana 

          ...

          S: Thank you and anumodana for sharing for our further wise consideration. Understanding more about realities now, such as seeing, visible object, bodily consciousness, hardness, painful feeling and so on is the only way that undersanding with detachment will develop. Otherwise just more ogha (floods) and yoga (yokes) of lobha, ditthi and avijja! All the Teachings are so very deep.

          Metta

          Sarah

          ======



        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Sarah and Jagkrit, Good to be reminded that we so easily think in conventional way about kamma and vipaaka. Like the troubles I face now with a travel
          Message 4 of 25 , Sep 26 10:42 AM
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            Dear Sarah and Jagkrit,
            Good to be reminded that we so easily think in conventional way about kamma and vipaaka. Like the troubles I face now with a travel agent who went bankrupt, having to get money back, etc. 
            There are just different moments. And also when I had the accident. Many different moments and really not all of them akusala vipaaka. 
            Nina
            Op 26 sep 2013, om 19:13 heeft <sarahprocterabbott@...> <sarahprocterabbott@...> het volgende geschreven:

            It's like when friends talk about the floods in Thailand or difficulties faced being the results of akusala kamma. Again, just a conventional idea - nothing to do with realities.

            >JK: I find this sutta where The Lord Buddha explained how to understand worlding conditions reflecting to their impermanent. This can be beneficial even they are only conventional idea.
            ...
            S: This would only be worldly, conventional thinking. Anyone can say that the floods or a job are impermanent. When the Buddha taught about impermanence, he was referring to the impermanence of realities, dhammas, the unsatisfactoriness of dhammas and the lack of control of such dhammas due to their nature of anatta.


          • kevinf596
            Hello Sarah, S: Glad to hear it s worked out well for you. Like Ajahn says, we have everything now we ever wished for - seeing, hearing and so on! Yes, we re
            Message 5 of 25 , Sep 26 3:24 PM
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               Hello Sarah,


              S: Glad to hear it's worked out well for you. Like Ajahn says, we have everything now we ever wished for - seeing, hearing and so on! Yes, we're beginners on the path, so still very susceptible to worldly conditions - very natural. Good to know that in the ultimate sense, seeing and hearing are the results of kamma, not in anyone's control. 

              Planning and hoping....more lobha, but life goes one. And when I hear it, I hope (lobha again), that all works out according to conditions...

              Thanks for sharing and best wishes for the job and perhaps will see you again soon in Thailand.

              K: Yes, thank you, Sarah.  With the job or without the job, there is still just nama and rupa arising due to conditions.  The job could end and i could be out of one.  Then, that could lead to something much better.. and so forth, who knows?  All moments of vipakka are different, so whatever arises will be experienced, nothing to get too excited about... all just conditions.  

              Likewise with thinking about Thailand in the future-- just thinking, that's all it is.

              But speaking conventionally, yes, I am looking forward to it.  It will be a good experience to live there longer-term.

              And the job is working out well.


              For now,

              Kevin
            • jagkrit2012
              Message 6 of 25 , Sep 26 7:32 PM
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                ---In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                Dear Jagkrit (Phil, Kevin & all), 


                We need to consider suttas carefully - we know that whatever the Buddha taught was referring to realities, dhammas and the understanding of these:


                >>S: I understand your point, but 'job', 'career success' are worldly ideas based on what is experienced through the senses. We cannot say that 'job' and 'career success' are the results of good kamma in an absolute sense. We need to consider the meaning of kamma and vipaka and kammaja rupas very precisely.

                It's like when friends talk about the floods in Thailand or difficulties faced being the results of akusala kamma. Again, just a conventional idea - nothing to do with realities.

                >JK: I find this sutta where The Lord Buddha explained how to understand worlding conditions reflecting to their impermanent. This can be beneficial even they are only conventional idea.
                ...
                S: This would only be worldly, conventional thinking. Anyone can say that the floods or a job are impermanent. When the Buddha taught about impermanence, he was referring to the impermanence of realities, dhammas, the unsatisfactoriness of dhammas and the lack of control of such dhammas due to their nature of anatta.
                ...


                >AN 8.6 
                PTS: A iv 157 
                Lokavipatti Sutta: The Failings of the World
                translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

                "Now, gain arises for a well-instructed disciple of the noble ones. He reflects, 'Gain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.

                "Loss arises... Status arises... Disgrace arises... Censure arises... Praise arises... Pleasure arises...

                "Pain arises. He reflects, 'Pain has arisen for me. It is inconstant, stressful, & subject to change.' He discerns it as it actually is.

                ....

                S: Absolute realities. Painful feeling arising with bodily consciousness (akusala vipaka) can be known now if it appears. Unlike in the case of seeing (always accompanied by neutral feeling), when painful feeling appears, it must be akusala vipaka to experience tangible object at that moment - this moment!

                In other words, they are the dhammas that are being pointed to that are to be known - different cittas, cetasikas and rupas which appear now at such times of gain and loss etc. If nothing is understood about dhammas, we just continue to think in our ordinary way about floods and jobs as bad and good results and think about the impermanence of these without undersanding anything about the Buddha's Teachings.

                ....>"His mind does not remain consumed with the gain. His mind does not remain consumed with the loss... with the status... the disgrace... the censure... the praise... the pleasure. His mind does not remain consumed with the pain.

                ....

                S: For the wise, they know that seeing or bodily consciousness are and accompanying mental factors are just momentary dhammas, results of kamma. They realise that the real problems are the subsequent thinking with lobha, dosa and moha on account of these. Remember the two arrows!

                ...

                >"He does not welcome the arisen gain, or rebel against the arisen loss. He does not welcome the arisen status, or rebel against the arisen disgrace. He does not welcome the arisen praise, or rebel against the arisen censure. He does not welcome the arisen pleasure, or rebel against the arisen pain. As he thus abandons welcoming & rebelling, he is released from birth, aging, & death; from sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs. He is released, I tell you, from suffering & stress.

                >Anumodhana 

                ...

                S: Thank you and anumodana for sharing for our further wise consideration. Understanding more about realities now, such as seeing, visible object, bodily consciousness, hardness, painful feeling and so on is the only way that undersanding with detachment will develop. Otherwise just more ogha (floods) and yoga (yokes) of lobha, ditthi and avijja! All the Teachings are so very deep.

                Metta

                Sarah

                ======



              • jagkrit2012
                Dear Sarah and Nina S: This would only be worldly, conventional thinking. Anyone can say that the floods or a job are impermanent. When the Buddha taught about
                Message 7 of 25 , Sep 26 8:19 PM
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                  Dear Sarah and Nina

                  S: This would only be worldly, conventional thinking. Anyone can say that the floods or a job are impermanent. When the Buddha taught about impermanence, he was referring to the impermanence of realities, dhammas, the unsatisfactoriness of dhammas and the lack of control of such dhammas due to their nature of anatta.
                  ...
                  S: Thank you and anumodana for sharing for our further wise consideration. Understanding more about realities now, such as seeing, visible object, bodily consciousness, hardness, painful feeling and so on is the only way that undersanding with detachment will develop. Otherwise just more ogha (floods) and yoga (yokes) of lobha, ditthi and avijja! All the Teachings are so very deep.

                  ======

                  JK: Thank you very much for your further explanation. I'm now understand more when studying this sutta and see how deep it is by the Lord Buddha words.

                  This reminds me once I've read something Alan Driver mention about studying Buddhism. He mentioned that before studying Buddhism, he thought that he was keen about life, philosophy and psychology. But in fact, it was very shallow of pleasure in the beauty of poetries or verses , not the truth. Some parts of some poetries or verses persuade us to ponder that we realise the truth of life. They, however, never deliberate any precision of the characteristic of the truth but only display the impression which lures people to appreciate them. 

                  Anumodhana

                  Jagkrit


                • sarahprocterabbott
                  Hi Kevin, K: Yes, thank you, Sarah. With the job or without the job, there is still just nama and rupa arising due to conditions. The job could end and i
                  Message 8 of 25 , Sep 27 1:06 AM
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                    Hi Kevin,

                     

                    >K: Yes, thank you, Sarah.  With the job or without the job, there is still just nama and rupa arising due to conditions.  The job could end and i could be out of one.  Then, that could lead to something much better.. and so forth, who knows?  All moments of vipakka are different, so whatever arises will be experienced, nothing to get too excited about... all just conditions.  

                    Likewise with thinking about Thailand in the future-- just thinking, that's all it is.
                    ...
                    S: Yes, exactly. Vipaka doesn't depend on anyone's wish or will. As you say, just namas and rupas. Seeing, hearing, other vipaka cittas regardless of whether, conventionally speaking, one has a job or lives in what place.
                    ...
                    >S:But speaking conventionally, yes, I am looking forward to it.  It will be a good experience to live there longer-term.

                    >And the job is working out well.
                    ...
                    S: And there will be more seeing, hearing and thinking just like now! The seeing and hearing now are what we were excited about experiencing yesterday and in a jiff they're gone as soon as they arise, soon to be yesterday's experiences. Samsara - wishing for more such experiences, clinging to them when they arise and grieving about them when they pass!

                    Keep posting - always good to share with you.

                    Jon's computer has packed in (NOT vipaka, but a lot of stories on account of various dhammas), otherwise we'd have already started on the editing and unploading of KK Aug 2013. Will have to wait til Sydney now!

                    Metta

                    Sarah
                    =====
                  • sarahprocterabbott
                    Dear Nina & Jagkrit, N: Good to be reminded that we so easily think in conventional way about kamma and vipaaka. Like the troubles I face now with a travel
                    Message 9 of 25 , Sep 27 1:24 AM
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                      Dear Nina & Jagkrit,

                       

                      >N: Good to be reminded that we so easily think in conventional way about kamma and vipaaka. Like the troubles I face now with a travel agent who went bankrupt, having to get money back, etc.
                      ...
                      S: Yes, when you mentioned (off-list) about your akusala vipaka, I thought of this example too when I wrote to Jagkrit.
                      ...
                      >N: There are just different moments. And also when I had the accident. Many different moments and really not all of them akusala vipaaka. 
                      ...
                      S: Different dhammas. Troubles with the travel agent or last weekend when all flights to Hong Kong were cancelled - we think of "poor me" and "my troubles" and "my vipaka", but it's all just thinking with dosa on account of the strong attachment to ourselves and having life run according to our wishes.

                      Actually, at such times of hearing about the travel agent or closed airport, only sound is heard, only visible object is seen - just like now!! - and the rest is just "delirious thinking" on account of these very ordinary sense experiences. We can't actually point to any particular akusala vipaka at such times at all! There's not even any painful bodily feeling associated with hearing the sounds, taken for being the news. We have no idea whether the experiencing of the sounds is kusala or akusala vipaka at such times. All just speculation.

                      With regard to your accident, of course there must have been many, many moments of bodily experience with painful feeling and at such times, akusala vipaka.

                      However, these moments are so brief - just one citta in a sense door process and then so many other cittas, followed by thinking with aversion (usually). The body-door covers up the mind-door processes and seems to last, but actually just cittas experiencing objects and then gone completely. No self involved at all. At such times, it seems like so much akusala vipaka, but what about the many moments of seeing, hearing and other experiences?

                      Helpful for us all to reflect more on. We worry about this and that in the future and again forget the future will be just like now - moments of seeing, hearing and bodily experience, followed by lots and lots of thinking. Gradually, there can be just a little more understanding and detachment from the reality which appears now - just a very fleeting dhamma. That's all!

                      Metta and best wishes

                      Sarah
                      =====

                    • jagkrit2012
                      Dear Sarah and Nina S: With regard to your (Nina) accident, of course there must have been many, many moments of bodily experience with painful feeling and
                      Message 10 of 25 , Sep 27 7:35 AM
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                        Dear Sarah and Nina 


                        > S: With regard to your (Nina) accident, of course there must have been many, many moments of bodily experience with painful feeling and at such times, akusala vipaka.

                        JK: I think that bodily sense is the only vipaka we can experience without far speculation. When bodily sense experiences hard or soft, hot or cold and move or tense of an object. There will be dhukkha or sukkha vetana arises with this citta. We then assume that can be kusala or akusala vipaka.

                        ==================

                        > S: However, these moments are so brief - just one citta in a sense door process and then so many other cittas, followed by thinking with aversion (usually). The body-door covers up the mind-door processes and seems to last, but actually just cittas experiencing objects and then gone completely. No self involved at all. At such times, it seems like so much akusala vipaka, but what about the many moments of seeing, hearing and other experiences?

                        JK: I've taken your comment above for more consideration and realised that a lot of speculation about kusala and akusala vipaka and karma result were going on in my thought. And I found out that many moments of those thoughts became akusala citta of dosa and lobha thinking about vipaka and result of karma. They were delirious thinking. Consequently, it is waste of time to be preoccupied with trying to figure out about what kind of vipaka or result of karma is it instead of understand the understandable objects. Sarah will say better understanding upanisaya gocara. 

                        Thank you and anumodhana

                        Jagkrit



                      • kevinf596
                        Sarah wrote: Keep posting - always good to share with you. Kevin: Sure will. Thanks Sarah. Kevin
                        Message 11 of 25 , Sep 28 3:26 PM
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                           Sarah wrote:


                          Keep posting - always good to share with you.


                          Kevin:  Sure will.  Thanks Sarah.


                          Kevin




                        • Maipenrai Dhammasaro
                          Good friends Kevin, Lukas, et al, Perhaps you will understand my fav of ole blue eye ... at 75 years young, tis I theme song...
                          Message 12 of 25 , Sep 28 4:28 PM
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                            Good friends Kevin, Lukas, et al,

                            Perhaps you will understand my fav of "ole blue eye"... at 75 years young, tis I theme song...

                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IXr59ZKaVTI

                            May you have all the success...  and, more than you expect...

                            peace...

                            yours in the Dhamma-vinaya,

                            chuck

                            To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                            From: kevinf596@...
                            Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2013 14:10:16 -0700
                            Subject: [dsg] RE: Re: Got a job

                             

                            Dear Lukas,


                            You wrote:


                            Lukas:  Wish you good luck. I think this is usually a bit stressful to start with a new job or actually with anything new. Any kind of fresh enviroments makes us feel a bit uncomfortable,  hard to used to as I noticed. 


                            Kevin:  Thanks but it shouldn't be too bad.  As I said, I have worked for this company before...  


                            Lukas: How about that one?


                            Kevin: ha ha, yeah Senatra is good.

                            See ya,

                            Kevin







                          • sarahprocterabbott@ymail.com
                            Dear Jagkrit, S: With regard to your (Nina) accident, of course there must have been many, many moments of bodily experience with painful feeling and at
                            Message 13 of 25 , Sep 29 11:47 PM
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                              Dear Jagkrit, 


                              >> S: With regard to your (Nina) accident, of course there must have been many, many moments of bodily experience with painful feeling and at such times, akusala vipaka.

                              >JK: I think that bodily sense is the only vipaka we can experience without far speculation. When bodily sense experiences hard or soft, hot or cold and move or tense of an object. There will be dhukkha or sukkha vetana arises with this citta. We then assume that can be kusala or akusala vipaka.
                              ...
                              S: Even when we think about bodily experience or tangible object experienced or vedana, is it just dhamma that is known or is it taken for 'my experience', 'my pain', 'my body'? Speculating about vipaka is usually thinking about a situation, not an understanding of bodily experience or associated mental factors which arise and fall away so very quickly even now as we speak.

                              ==================

                              >> S: However, these moments are so brief - just one citta in a sense door process and then so many other cittas, followed by thinking with aversion (usually). The body-door covers up the mind-door processes and seems to last, but actually just cittas experiencing objects and then gone completely. No self involved at all. At such times, it seems like so much akusala vipaka, but what about the many moments of seeing, hearing and other experiences?

                              >JK: I've taken your comment above for more consideration and realised that a lot of speculation about kusala and akusala vipaka and karma result were going on in my thought. And I found out that many moments of those thoughts became akusala citta of dosa and lobha thinking about vipaka and result of karma. They were delirious thinking. Consequently, it is waste of time to be preoccupied with trying to figure out about what kind of vipaka or result of karma is it instead of understand the understandable objects. 
                              ...
                              S: Yes, lots of useless thinking. We chatted in the mountains to our mutual Thai friend about delirious thinking. We may use all the right Pali terms and concepts, but it may all be of no value at all, if there's no understanding of present dhammas. This is especially true when it's trying to 'work out' the story or situation, such as trying to pin-point what kind of vipaka it is now. 'Self' is behind it all - trying to work it out for 'my' understanding and knowledge.

                              >Sarah will say better understanding upanisaya gocara. 
                              ...
                              S: Yes, what appears now? That's all. Seeing now....visible object now..... worry..... just common, ordinary dhammas. No need to look for anything else.

                              This is why the truth about kamma and vipaka can only really be understood when there is more understanding about these common dhammas.

                              Thanks for your kind feedback and helpful comments.

                              Metta

                              Sarah
                              =====

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