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RE: Re: the khandhas are realities.

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  • sarahprocterabbott
    Hi Howard (& Thomas), T: Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is: just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just
    Message 1 of 26 , Sep 22, 2013

      Hi Howard (& Thomas), 


      >T: > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is:> > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality),
      > ....
      > S: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality?> For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea?
      ....
      >H: Sarah, there is the following:

      /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, <....>/(From the Potaliya Sutta

      >And also the following:
      /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is
      not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they
      imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. <...>/(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta)

      >/Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./(From the Phena Sutta)
      .....
      .....
      S: Yes, dhammas - empty of self, void of self. Dhammas, realities, quite different from the conventional truths we've always imagined to be real.

      Metta

      Sarah
      =====
    • thomaslaw03
      ... Hi Howard (& Thomas), ... /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful
      Message 2 of 26 , Sep 23, 2013

         



        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

        Hi Howard (& Thomas), 


        >T: > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is:> > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality),
        > ....
        > S: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality?> For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea?
        ....
        >H: Sarah, there is the following:

        /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, <....>/(From the Potaliya Sutta

        >And also the following:
        /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is
        not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they
        imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. <...>/(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta)

        >/Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./(From the Phena Sutta)
        .....
        .....
        S: Yes, dhammas - empty of self, void of self. Dhammas, realities, quite different from the conventional truths we've always imagined to be real.

        Metta

        Sarah
        =====
         
        Hi Sarah,
         
        ... Seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality)...
         
        It also means much the same as seeing them as 'anicca' (impermanent), vain phenomena, and empty of any permanent entity. There is no need to name it as 'realities', but to see them directly as they really are as anicca ...
         
        Thomas
         
         
      • thomaslaw03
        Resending: Hi Sarah, ... Thomas: It also means much the same as seeing them as anicca (impermanent), vain phenomena, and empty of any permanent entity. Also,
        Message 3 of 26 , Sep 23, 2013

          Resending:

           

          Hi Sarah,
           
          >... Seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality)...
           
          Thomas: It also means much the same as seeing them as 'anicca' (impermanent), vain phenomena, and empty of any permanent entity. Also, according to the suttas (particularly SN), there is no need to name it as 'realities', but to see them (dhammas 'phenomena') directly as they really are as anicca ...
           
          Thomas
           

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Hi Howard (& Thomas), 


          >T: > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is:> > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality),
          > ....
          > S: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality?> For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea?
          ....
          >H: Sarah, there is the following:

          /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, <....>/(From the Potaliya Sutta

          >And also the following:
          /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is
          not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they
          imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. <...>/(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta)

          >/Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./(From the Phena Sutta)
          .....
          .....
          S: Yes, dhammas - empty of self, void of self. Dhammas, realities, quite different from the conventional truths we've always imagined to be real.

          Metta

          Sarah
          =====
        • thomaslaw03
          Hi Sarah, My previous reply to your response seems not showing in this format of discussion (?). Regarding seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (=
          Message 4 of 26 , Sep 24, 2013

            Hi Sarah,
             
            My previous reply to your response seems not showing in this format of discussion (?). 

             
            Regarding seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas 'phenomena') as just  void without reality (rittaka), it  also means much the same as seeing them as 'anicca' (impermanent), vain phenomena, and empty of any permanent entity. Also, according to the suttas (particularly SN), there is no need to name it as 'realities', but to see them (dhammas 'phenomena') directly as they really are as anicca ...

             
            Regards,
             
            Thomas

            ---In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            Hi Howard (& Thomas), 


            >T: > > Another meaning for the term su~n~nattaa is:> > "just void (rittaka; just without reality), just vain (tucchaka; just insubstantial), just empty (su~n~naka)." That is, seeing the five aggregates/the sense spheres (= dhammas `phenomena') as "just void (without reality),
            > ....
            > S: Are you suggesting that in some suttas in SN, the Buddha meant su~n~nattaa to refer to khandhas as "empty of self", whilst in others, he meant it to mean "just empty", without reality?> For the second meaning, would it mean that khandhas are without reality and are therefore just ideas? Would that mean that seeing just sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality sees a non-reality idea? Or that a non-reality non-experiences a non-reality idea?
            ....
            >H: Sarah, there is the following:

            /Now suppose a man, when dreaming, were to see delightful parks, delightful forests, delightful stretches of land, & delightful lakes, and on awakening were to see nothing. In the same way, householder, a disciple of the noble ones considers this point: 'The Blessed One has compared sensuality to a dream, <....>/(From the Potaliya Sutta

            >And also the following:
            /See how the world together with the devas has self-conceit for what is
            not-self. Enclosed by mind-and-body it imagines, 'This is real.' Whatever they
            imagine it to be, it is quite different from that. It is unreal, of a false nature and perishable. <...>/(From the Dvayatanupassana Sutta)

            >/Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick — this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./(From the Phena Sutta)
            .....
            .....
            S: Yes, dhammas - empty of self, void of self. Dhammas, realities, quite different from the conventional truths we've always imagined to be real.

            Metta

            Sarah
            =====
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