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RE: RE: Re: Door = reality. Rupa kalapa = concepts

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  • jonoabb
    Hi Rob E J: No, the Satipatthana Sutta does not begin with anapanasati. You are perhaps thinking of the section on mindfulness of the body, which begins with
    Message 1 of 483 , Sep 20, 2013
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      Hi Rob E 


      J: No, the Satipatthana Sutta does not begin with anapanasati. You are perhaps thinking of the section on mindfulness of the body, which begins with the person who has already developed anapanasati.

       

      RE: Well yes, there's a bit of an introduction that names the four foundations of mindfulness, and then it's straight into anapanasati, as the practice for contemplation of the body, which happens to be the first practice in the sequence.  And it certainly does not say that this is directed towards someone who is accomplished in anapanasati, it merely says that he "arouses mindfulness of...the breath," which is of course the object of his awareness.  It is a practice which is being recommended for mindfulness of the body, not a random mentioning of someone who happens to do this anyway.

      ========================


      J: Thanks for quoting from the Satipatthana Sutta.

      To my reading of the commentary and sub-commentary (“Comy”, “Sub-Comy”), the passage you refer to above is part of the particular case or circumstances being addressed, and refers to the development of samatha with breath as object. That is to say, it does not refer to the development of awareness in connection with the breath.

      However, later in the sutta there is the passage “He, thinking 'I breathe in long,' understands when he is breathing in long...”, and in reference to this we read:

      <<Comy: Indeed, to that yogi training in respiration-mindfulness according to the method taught ..., the four absorptions [cattari jhanani] arise in the respiration sign [assasapassasanimitte uppajjanti].

      Having emerged from the absorption, he lays hold of either the respiration body or the factors of absorption.

      There the meditating worker in respiration [assasapassasa kammika] examines the body (rupa) thinking thus: Supported by what is respiration? Supported by the basis [vatthunissita]. The basis is the coarse body [karajja kaya]. The coarse body is composed of the Four Great Primaries and the corporeality derived from these [cattari mahabhutani upadarupañca].

      Sub-Comy: The worker in respiration examines the respiration while devoting himself to the development of insight through the means of corporeality.

      The basis, namely, the coarse body, is where the mind and mental characteristics occur.

      Comy: Thereupon, he, the worker in respiration, cognizes the mind (nama) in the pentad of mental concomitants beginning with sense-impression.

      The worker in respiration examines the mind and the body, sees the Dependent Origination of ignorance and so forth, and concluding that this mind and this body are bare conditions, and things produced from conditions, and that besides these there is neither a living being nor a person, becomes to that extent a person who transcends doubt. Sub-Comy: doubt regarding the past, the future and the present of his own existence and so forth, as for instance taught in the Sabbasava Sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya.>>

      (This last is a reference to stream-entry.)

      The points to note in the above, as I see it, are:
      - The person first gains jhana with breath as object.
      - Then, having emerged from jhana, the 4 primary rupas become object of insight.
      - This is followed later by mindfulness with namas and rupas as object.

      Now while the sutta describes a clear order of things, it does not say that the mindfulness of breathing as samatha development makes the development of insight easier or quicker. It is just describing how the development of insight may proceed together with the development of samatha with breath as object. This occurs not while ‘in’ jhana but after emerging from jhana.

      Nor is there any suggestion that the attainment of jhana or of a particular level of samatha is necessary in order for there to be the development of awareness/insight.

      Jon

    • jonoabb
      Hi Rob E RE: Hi Jon. RE: I will get into the next part about the Satipatthana sutta later, as I need to look at it to continue the discussion. J: Glad to
      Message 483 of 483 , Oct 1, 2013
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        Hi Rob E

         

        RE: Hi Jon. 


        > RE: I will get into the next part about the Satipatthana sutta later, as I need to look at it to continue the discussion.


        > J:  Glad to hear you'll be checking out the text of the sutta for a change!! :-))


        RE:

        :-)  I appreciate what I desperately hope is your humor here, and if so, is very funny. 


        I will get back to you with the usual sutta quotes as soon as I can.  :-)


        Very very funny, Jon.   ; - /


        Best,

        Rob  E.


        - - - - - - - - - -


        J:  You may have forgotten in the confusion over the new format that you have already come back with a quote from the Satipatthana Sutta.  My reply to your message can be found here:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dhammastudygroup/conversations/messages/133161


        Jon

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