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RE: RE: [dsg] Re: Perception is Conditioned

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  • jonoabb
    Hi KenH (and Howard, Nina and Ann) KH: I would say that the only thing making one audible object different from another was its pleasantness or unpleasantness.
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 19, 2013
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      Hi KenH (and Howard, Nina and Ann)

      KH: I would say that the only thing making one audible object different  from another was its pleasantness or unpleasantness. According to the texts it can be pleasant, mildly pleasant or unpleasant.
      ======================

      J:  Different kalapas of rupas are involved in the making of each sound, hence the different kinds of sound.  These differences mean that sounds differ, and not just in the degree of their pleasantness.

      Jon


      An audible object might be thought about (at the mind door) as being the sound of a bell (for example) but is that because of some intrinsic nature of the audible object? Or is it because of sanna only?

      I think it might be because of sanna only. The texts say that sanna marks the object and recognises the mark it has made. They don't say (as far as I know) the object was already marked before sanna experienced it.

      We might think we hear a bell, and we might think the people around us also hear a bell. Therefore, it is tempting to speculate that the audible rupas we are experiencing are intrinsically marked with some bell-consistent quality. But really there is no bell, and there are no hearers of bells. That is just thinking. Really, there is just audible object, hearing consciousness, volition, feeling and sanna.

      Ken H
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Ann, ... N: No, it is not composed of but arises together with the 8 inseparable ruupas. It is not one of them. As to visible object, this is one of the 8
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 19, 2013
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        Dear Ann,
        Op 19 sep 2013, om 04:57 heeft glenjohnann het volgende geschreven:

        On reading it, I recall the inseparable rupas and how the various combinations account for the difference in "sound", "visible object". However, is sound composed of the 8 inseparable rupas, or is it one of them? 
        --------
        N: No, it is not composed of but arises together with the 8 inseparable ruupas. It is not one of them. 
        As to visible object, this is one of the 8 inseparable ruupas. 
        -------

        A: All of this information is interesting - but only useful if it assists with the development of understanding. Lots of thinking about it, but then I am reminded, what about the reality now? What about now? 
        ------
        N: Good you ask. If we would not know about different combinations of the 4 Great Elements arising together with sound, visible object, we would believe that there are not different sounds, different visible objects. We may think that we only see grey, and then the development would not be natural. 
        Knowledge about the elements helps so that we remember: awareness does not change the object, and awareness should be natural. Awareness and understanding of just what appears naturally.

        Nina.   

      • kenhowardau
        Hi Jon, ---- J: Different kalapas of rupas are involved in the making of each sound, hence the different kinds of sound. These differences mean that
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 20, 2013
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           Hi Jon,


          ----

          <. . .>
          > J:  Different kalapas of rupas are involved in the making of each sound, hence the different kinds of sound.  These differences mean that sounds differ, and not just in the degree of their pleasantness.
          ----

          KH: Thanks Jon. No prizes for guessing my next question! What makes kalapas different? 

          I was content with my theory that the differences between sounds were due to accumulations in the citta rather than to inherent differences in the sounds.  That seemed plausible. Now I will have to learn the right theory. 

          Ken H
        • jonoabb
          Hi KenH J: Different kalapas of rupas are involved in the making of each sound, hence the different kinds of sound. These differences mean that sounds
          Message 4 of 24 , Sep 20, 2013
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            Hi KenH 


            > J:  Different kalapas of rupas are involved in the making of each sound, hence the different kinds of sound.  These differences mean that sounds differ, and not just in the degree of their pleasantness.
            ----

            KH: Thanks Jon. No prizes for guessing my next question! What makes kalapas different? 

            J:  The wording of my original post was a bit lose.  I should have said that the rupas of each kalapa are different.  And rupas are different by conditions :-))

            Jon
          • kenhowardau
            Hi Jon J: The wording of my original post was a bit lose. I should have said that the rupas of each kalapa are different. And rupas are different by
            Message 5 of 24 , Sep 21, 2013
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              Hi Jon


              > J:  The wording of my original post was a bit lose.  I should have said that the rupas of each kalapa are different.  And rupas are different by conditions :-))

              KH: Thanks, that brings us back to where we started. :-) As Ann asked: in which ways are they different by conditions?

              I am sure your, and Nina's, answers from the texts are right, (volume, I think, was one way) but I want to know why they are right. I want to know how they fit in perfectly with the rest of the Abhidhamma to describe the way things are.

              Leave it with me until I've got some sensible questions. :-)

              Ken H




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