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Re: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas

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  • Lukas
    Hi Phil, Less wrong view is the best what can happen in life. You tell how panna develops, but it only panna that can tell, only for a one moment and than gone
    Message 1 of 27 , Sep 10, 2013
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      Hi Phil,
      Less wrong view is the best what can happen in life. You tell how panna develops, but it only panna that can tell, only for a one moment and than gone forever. Never the same understanding, nver the same object of understanding. You cannot understand something twice. Only one new panna, and than forgot. This accumulates. Only a glimpse of understanding can tell. Other moment while it's not panna you think of panna, and construct stories of them. Like a lot of stories, but even this stories. Like a spectulation of understanding and how it develops, can have an object the past panna. Thus they can be thinkings with panna or with ignorance. This are mostly 9gnorance, attachement, blindness and stories. But there can be recollection wisely with panna, the panna that falls away long ago. Thus like strong panna from past, can be object ton present thinkings. By conditions. No one can tell you, no one. Only your panna. Panna can even know that present thinking is conditioned by past panna. We can think wisly and wrongly, thus both may be conditioned by past panna.
      There is no one in it, but did you investigated that? If someone tells you there is no self, no one there or a self self. No proof of that. Only panna checks, but than is so many words of abhidhamma, only to investigate..Only panna can tell, one object at a time. One wise recolection than gone, and again madness.
      Because if you think like this: there is no self. This is not investigation. This is some kind of belief. This is wrong view. And belive me thus can really harm. Nothing harms so much as wrong view.
      What is the condition for panna to arise? No word panna, how do you feel what panna is? 

      Best wishes
      Lukas  


      From: "philco777@..." <philco777@...>
      To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, September 10, 2013 12:29 AM
      Subject: [dsg] RE: e-notes from Saigon 10 - qu from Lukas

       
      Hi again LukasAnd as for the speculation about dhammas, I think that is the great gift of Abhidhamma. Personally speaking, I accept that it came a little later. But I still deeply alue it because respecting its detailed explanation of dhammas frees us from the modern sickness of thinking we can understand everything by thinking hard and acting with ambition. It mostly applies to Americans (yes we can!) but all of in the West are prone to it. Abhidhamma helps us to have a little humility because it makes clear how shallow our understanding is compared to the profound understanding of the Buddha and the ancient arahants.Do you want to have more understanding? Just understand. Now. If we try to get more than there are conditions to understand, then it is speculaton and greed. On tge other hand, I think its great to read about and briefly reflect on the teachings, that can help condition understanding that must always arise beyond our control, free of self greed for results. (Badically because self fears death, I think.)Phil


    • ptaus1
      Hi RobE and Phil, RE: Phil s message getting cut off, I just wrote a long post to Jon on satipatthana and when I scrolled down to send it, it disappeared. I
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 10, 2013
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        Hi RobE and Phil,

        RE: Phil's message getting cut off, I just wrote a long post to Jon on satipatthana and when I scrolled down to send it, it disappeared.  I don't know what's going on with this new yahoo format, but it sucks.



        p: Not sure what's going on there, I suspect that Javascript, though faster, is more unstable. This would probably be even more evident with mobile devices where the connection fluctuates and thus script loading is affected.

        Still, the old format had similar problems, so I do the same thing in the new format that I used to do in the old one:

        when I finished typing my reply, before doing anything else, I hit CtrlA (Select All) and then CtrlC (Copy). In this way everything you just typed is copied to the clipboard, so if there's any problems with the posting process, the whole Reply can be retrieved from your clipboard and thus save you a lot of time and frustration.

        Best wishes
        pt 
      • Lukas
        Hello, You can always send a message to dsg and also add another recepient in your email to the peron you reply, than one can see messages faster Lukas
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 10, 2013
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          Hello,
          You can always send a message to dsg and also add another recepient in your email to the peron you reply, than one can see messages faster

          Lukas
        • Lukas
          Hello every one, Upanissaya gocara, arakkha gocara, upanibhandha gocara. I recommend if anyone interest to google it or search DSG. This 3 Ajahn Sujin used
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 11, 2013
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            Hello every one,
            Upanissaya gocara, arakkha gocara, upanibhandha gocara.

            I recommend if anyone interest to google it or search DSG. This 3 Ajahn Sujin used while in Poland. This is connected to arammanupanisayapaccaya. The object that conditions accumulation of a particular tendencies. For example one likes coke, thus clinging and liking of coke accumulates more and more.

            Also there are particular objects for particular person for right understanding, by conditions. By aramman upanissaya paccaya.

            For example when one sees angry person or brutal person thus metta can arise since this is accyumulated before. To understand such akusala of others.

            Upanissay gocara, arakkha gocara and upanibbanda gocara. Gocara , an abject. This is how panna develops.

            First anything must be understood. Any object that comes. Than the particular object are accumulate.like listening to dhamma untill they become protection. Cita becomes kusala with that particular object more and more. This protects. Untill this is upanibbanda, satipattha arises.

            Best wishes
            Lukas
          • epsteinrob
            Hi pt. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: ...when I finished typing my reply, before doing anything else, I hit
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 14, 2013
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               Hi pt.


              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              ...when I finished typing my reply, before doing anything else, I hit CtrlA (Select All) and then CtrlC (Copy). In this way everything you just typed is copied to the clipboard, so if there's any problems with the posting process, the whole Reply can be retrieved from your clipboard and thus save you a lot of time and frustration.

              RE:  Thanks, that is a good idea.  I've done that before, but apparently not at the right time in this case.

              Best,
              Rob E.

              - - - - - - - - -
            • epsteinrob
              Hi Sarah. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, wrote: Dear Rob E, I just wrote a message suggesting everyone should be
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 14, 2013
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                Hi Sarah.

                 

                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, <dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                 Dear Rob E,


                I just wrote a message suggesting everyone should be careful to:


                a) click 'send' and not 'reply' to post the message after writing it


                b), copy it until it appears on list.


                Hope you can write it again...thx for your patience!

                RE: Thanks for your encouragement.  I'm still trying to recover from the loss of my message and this new format.  It's giving me a bit of a nervous breakdown.  I promise I will reconstruct my message and send it again.  The topic is too important to let my personal mental state get in the way.  :-)

                BTW, it's not a very appropriate thing to say, but I'd just like to add that I hate yahoo.  :-)

                Best,
                Rob E.

                = = = = = = = = = = = =
              • sarahprocterabbott
                Hi Rob E, S: I just wrote a message suggesting everyone should be careful to: a) click send and not reply to post the message after writing it b), copy it
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 21, 2013
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                  Hi Rob E, 


                  >S: I just wrote a message suggesting everyone should be careful to:


                  a) click 'send' and not 'reply' to post the message after writing it


                  b), copy it until it appears on list.

                  ...
                  >RE: Thanks for your encouragement.  I'm still trying to recover from the loss of my message and this new format.  It's giving me a bit of a nervous breakdown.  I promise I will reconstruct my message and send it again.  The topic is too important to let my personal mental state get in the way.  :-)
                  ....'
                  S: Glad to hear it. It has been a difficult adjustment for all of us.
                  ...
                  >BTW, it's not a very appropriate thing to say, but I'd just like to add that I hate yahoo.  :-)
                  ....
                  S: Well, please help by giving votes to Pt's link and adding a comment.

                  I really, really appreciate Pt's very constructive, helpful, couteous approach to any difficulties like these ones. As he says, yahoo is listening, but takes time to get the message through.

                  If you are anyone except Nina (!! No disrespect intended:-)) - please use any votes you have in any accounts to support Pt's latest link.

                  Metta

                  Sarah
                  =======
                • sarahprocterabbott
                  Hi Lukas, Phil & all, Upanissaya gocara, arakkha gocara, upanibhandha gocara. .... S: Gocara means object or pasture . In the Satipatthana Sutta, we read
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 22, 2013
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                    Hi Lukas, Phil & all, 


                    >Upanissaya gocara, arakkha gocara, upanibhandha gocara.
                    ....
                    S: Gocara means object or 'pasture'. In the Satipatthana Sutta, we read about gocara sampajanna - the 'resort' or object of satipatthana.

                    Upanissaya means decisive support, so upanissaya gocara is the object which is 'decisive support' for kusala or akusala.

                    If it's the object, the reality, experienced by right understanding, it leads to all kinds of kusala with understanding, which are a 'protection' from akusala. This is the meaning of arakkha gocara. Arakkha means 'protection'.

                    Finally, through the development of right intellectual understanding of reality (upanissaya gocara) and the development of all kinds of kusala with understanding, it leads to upanibhandha gocara, the direct understanding of realities.
                    ....
                    >This is connected to arammanupanisayapaccaya. The object that conditions accumulation of a particular tendencies. For example one likes coke, thus clinging and liking of coke accumulates more and more.
                    ....
                    S: Yes, visible object or taste can be arammanupanissaya paccaya (object which is decisive support for citta to arise). They can also be the arammana for understanding to arise. 

                    The Buddha's gocara are the objects which can be directly understood, i.e. realities. Gocara only refer to realities whereas arammana as experienced by cittas can be realities or concepts.
                    ...
                    >Also there are particular objects for particular person for right understanding, by conditions. By aramman upanissaya paccaya.

                    For example when one sees angry person or brutal person thus metta can arise since this is accyumulated before. To understand such akusala of others.
                    ....
                    S: We see how understanding leads to being the 'understanding person', leads to more metta.
                    It's useless to try to know what are the arammanupanissaya paccaya, otherwise more clinging to 'me' and 'my suitable objects' instead of just understanding the reality which appears now. No need to label it or give it a term at all.
                    ...
                    >Upanissay gocara, arakkha gocara and upanibbanda gocara. Gocara , an abject. This is how panna develops.

                    >First anything must be understood. 
                    ...
                    S: First, wise consideration of what is reality now: seeing now, visible object now, thinking now. Not 'self' that considers or tries to understand anything. Just dhammas arising and falling away. Such wise consideration is just for dispelling the idea of any self to be found anywhere.
                    ...
                    >Any object that comes. Than the particular object are accumulate.like listening to dhamma untill they become protection. 
                    ...
                    S: It is the understanding of the object that accumulates, not the object. Understanding which leads to all kinds of kusala - dana, sila, metta, samatha with understanding. A protection from akusala.
                    ...
                    >Cita becomes kusala with that particular object more and more. This protects. Untill this is upanibbanda, satipattha arises.

                    ...
                    S: Yes, well said. No expectation, no trying, no wishing, just beginning to understand what is meant by 'living alone' now with seeing or hearing or whatever appears.

                    Thanks for your reflections and sharing, Lukas.

                    Metta

                    Sarah
                    p.s. glad to hear the work is going well.
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