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RE: RE: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4

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  • sarahprocterabbott
    Hi Phil & all, I m just testing out - this is my first message sent from the dreaded new format as my second yahoo account has now been converted too. I want
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 5, 2013
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      Hi Phil & all,


      I'm just testing out - this is my first message sent from the dreaded new format as my second yahoo account has now been converted too. I want to see if I can trim, having clicked on the three dots which brings up the previous message. 

      ....

       
      P:> I still believe what is called "meditation" by the world today is very goid for the brain, I do it for tge beuroligica stimulation tgat studies show it brings. And the factbis it does seem to bring a sense of lightness and well-being during the day. It's very very easy to understand why it is so popular, just like exercise is popular, very similar reasons. So personally, I recommend everyone (as I recommended to Lukas) to "meditate" *if* (big if) they can see it is an exercise rooted in lobha, in hunger for pleasant mental and physical states and is NOT bhavana. If there are conditions for one to be courageous enough without it, great, but we should remember that desire for pleasant mental states is going to feed somewhere. Does it feed on our Dhamma study, on our Dhamma discussion? 
      ....
      S: Look forward to reading Jagkrit's reply. I might even read this one out in the discussion. not sure what the "beuroligica stimulation" is though! 
      ...

      P:> P.s to mods. I have always been very diligent  about trimming overtge years, but I'm afraid it's not possible when I reply on iphone from hotmail box, for some reason the msg I am replying to doesn't come up at the bottom of this box although it appears after the posting My posting will be
      limited so pls bear with it, thanks. 
      ....
      S: We know there are tech issues at the moment. Pt may have some suggestions. Meanwhile, just write and we ask everyone else writing in those threads to do the trimming when they write as I'm doing now. Let's check I can set an example and cut off Jagkrit's, yours, Jagkrit's and my posts!!!

      Metta

      Sarah
      =====




    • Jagkrit
      Dear Phil I see your point, Phil. But it is hard for Buddhist communities to accept that meditation is only a mind exercise like other exercises, nothing to do
      Message 2 of 24 , Sep 5, 2013
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        Dear Phil

        I see your point, Phil. But it is hard for Buddhist communities to accept that meditation is only a mind exercise like other exercises, nothing to do with practice. And even they accepted that. It doesn't, nevertheless, help to understand the right view. It is again self doing something with desire to gain something.

        If you want to have clear mind, sharp mind or clam mind, there are many ways, many methods of doing it. I think one will find the way as he has accumulated. May be meditation is one as you suggested.

        However, as we've studied about lobha and wrong view and understood that how it works. It should be useful for us when it arises to be understood. Otherwise, Lobha and wrong view arise in vain. And you are right that even during our dhamma study and discussion, desire and self restlessly play their roles from time to time. So don't waste them.

        Anumodhana

        Jagkrit



        Sent from my iPad

        On Sep 5, 2013, at 9:07, philip Coristine <philco777@...> wrote:

         


          Dear Jagkrit, group (p.s to mods te trimming)  

           I still believe what is called "meditation" by the world today is very goid for the brain, I do it for tge beuroligica stimulation tgat studies show it brings. And the factbis it does seem to bring a sense of lightness and well-being during the day. It's very very easy to understand why it is so popular, just like exercise is popular, very similar reasons. So personally, I recommend everyone (as I recommended to Lukas) to "meditate" *if* (big if) they can see it is an exercise rooted in lobha, in hunger for pleasant mental and physical states and is NOT bhavana. If there are conditions for one to be courageous enough without it, great, but we should remember that desire for pleasant mental states is going to feed somewhere. Does it feed on our Dhamma study, on our Dhamma discussion?


          Phil

        P.s to mods. I have always been very diligent  about trimming overtge years, but I'm afraid it's not possible when I reply on iphone from hotmail box, for some reason the msg I am replying to doesn't come up at the bottom of this box although it appears after the posting My posting will be
        limited so pls bear with it, thanks.


        To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
        From: jagkrit2012@...
        Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 20:08:34 +0700
        Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4

         
        Dear Phil

        I have to admit that I myself spent more than 10 years meditate with wrong view. It is not really easy to see that we do the anything wrong among 90% of meditation community. And the result of wrong view meditation was quite tempting. Can not blame any one except wrong accumulation. Unless one carefully consider with honesty, he will one day see something isn't right and that's the first start to the big click.

        Anumodhana

        Jagkrit

        Sent from my iPad

        On Sep 4, 2013, at 10:51, philip Coristine <philco777@...> wrote:

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        > Dear group
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        > Thanks for the notes Jagkrit.
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        >>>> One develops samatha bhavana because he sees the danger of akusalas in daily life, not wanting anything.
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        > This is what all the debates come down to, and would be resolved the moment wisdom clicks and allows modern "Buddhists" to admit with honesty that there is just wanting mental comfort, wanting an escape from fear, wanting, wanting, all the time. And in service of that wanting, a belief in the ability to make dhammas happen as desired. That's the ditthi to go with all the lobha.
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        > But that click doesn't happen very often. So the debates go on and on...
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        > Phil
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        > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
        > From: jagkrit2012@...
        > Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2013 08:43:09 +0700
        > Subject: Re: [dsg] e-notes from Saigon 4
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        > Dear friends
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        > Some more reminders add to very good Sarah's discussion summarizing.
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        > If someone tell you to do or practice, ask him what is he doing now? Seeing, do we have to do or do we have to practice? Seeing does its duty as usual. It is the same as other Cittas. No one does nothing.
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        > Right result is to understanding what is appearing now.
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        > One develops samatha bhavana because he sees the danger of akusalas in daily life, not wanting anything.
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        > Listening and considering dhamma is the way to develop understanding until the understanding is deeply rooted and penetrates the absolute realities which arises and falls away in each moment. Wrong view about self, then, will be eradicated.
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        > One can answer that rupa is not me but what and when rupa is not me? If it is not precise, it is just thinking.
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        > In order to understand realities, we shall begin with right now otherwise we keep on thinking and thinking repeatedly without real understanding.
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        > The teaching of The Lord Buddha always gives right understanding each word.
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        > Not understanding is real and right understanding is also real.
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        > Jagkrit
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        > On Sep 3, 2013, at 20:00, "sarahprocterabbott@..." <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
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        >> Dear Friends,
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        >> contd
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        >> For the few of us who attend all the discussions, including Jagkrit and his wife, no time for sight-seeing or anything more than a simple, nearby lunch, especially when extra sessions are arranged with the monks.
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        >> (It was the monks who had asked the first questions I mentioned this afternoon about samatha and we have an extra session with them tomorrow at Ajahn's invitation.)
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        >> What is appearing now? Only that which can be known. Otherwise, they are just words.
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        >> A long discussion about kamma and about the 2 kinds of cetana. Jon and I were asked to give explanations and detail too. There is cetana which arises with every citta, sahajata kamma which assembles the other cetasikas and the cetana that arises at moments of kusala and akusala which has the additional function of willing or urging the other cetasikas and citta to perform their functions. Kamma doesn't just produce rebirth citta, but also conditions the next moments which have different functions. The last kamma of the last life collected all the other kammas to bring such results. From rebirth, that so-called person until death and then another one. So a bird is born and a bird dies, a deva is born and a deva dies, so to speak. Next life, there will be the result of different kamma, a different being.
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        >> Attachment and cetana conditioning each other when akusala citta arises. The cetana urges to the other cetasikas to do something wrong and the attachment conditons it and the other cetasikas and citta at the same time.
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        >> The citta itself has no shape, no form, no taste, no colour. It's just a pure (pandara) element which experiences an object. No matter what kind of citta it is, it is like other cittas which arise and experience an object. Panna can arise to discern the true nature of a citta such as seeing.
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        >> Finally: Be patient and develop kusala as parami to clean the dirty mind and right understanding will lead the way to have more and more kusala by conditions and avijja will be less and less.
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        >> Metta
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        >> Sarah
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      • sarahprocterabbott
        Dear Phil, Good point to consider below - S: I can do - no understanding of anatta. ... P: Going too far? There can be understanding that there is no I ,
        Message 3 of 24 , Sep 21, 2013
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          Dear Phil,


          Good point to consider below - 


          >>S:  "I can do" - no understanding of anatta. 
          ...
          P:> Going too far? There can be understanding that there is no "I", just dhammas performing functions but we say "I can." 
          ...
          S: Yes, we can use the words conventionally, but it depends on the understanding. In the context, clearly it was referring to the idea that "I can do" some practice/understand dhamma/open a text to have pariyatti etc - no understanding that there is no "I can do" in reality - just conditioned dhammas.
          ...
          >PIt depends on whether there ate dhammas that are motivated to study the true Dhamma. If people do not have such conditions ( "people have conditions", more conventional speech) there will not be understanding of anatta. E.g someone says "I can choose what to look at" , no understanding of anatta. But "I can understand Japanese", there coud be understanding that it is just dhammas performing functions. Is the key maybe whether there is belief that dhammas can be selected or made to arise? 
          ...
          S: Right! No matter the context or situation, whenever there is any idea that dhammas can be selected/made to arise/be the object of awareness, it indicates wrong view and silabbataparamasa when there is such selecting or attempting to be aware of what has already fallen away.

          Thanks for your additional comments on the various notes.

          metta

          Sarah
          ======

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