Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Jhanas are part of N8P which is required for awakening.

Expand Messages
  • truth_aerator
    Hi Jon, all, ... I ve provided many of them. How many times should I quote satipatthana sutta or anapanasati sutta that explicitly talk about seclusion, and
    Message 1 of 483 , Aug 25, 2013
      Hi Jon, all,


      >J: Regarding, "practice is important", that's easy to say, but do you >have a quote (from the Pali Canon) to illustrate and clarify?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      I've provided many of them. How many times should I quote satipatthana sutta or anapanasati sutta that explicitly talk about seclusion, and practice?



      >J:The topics you've mentioned here are found mainly in Part I (Siila) >and Part II (Samadhi), but you haven't mentioned anything that would >represent or summarise the contents of Part III (Panna).
      >Yet is it Part III that makes up the bulk of the Vism.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      Are you saying that we can dispense with part 1 and 2, and go strait to third part?

      The structure describes path quite well. At first one masters sila, then samadhi and only then, only after mastering sila and samadhi one can master panna.



      >
      > Sometimes I get the impression that people's interest in the Vism begins and ends with Part II :-))
      >


      Or skip 2/3 of the book and go toward the 3rd :-))

      Sometimes trying to jump to 3rd step prior to standing on 1st and 2nd can be bad...

      When you build a house you prepare the ground first. You can't start building a roof before you built a basement.




      >===============
      > A: Hard work, perhaps to the point of tears, at eliminating akusala qualities.
      > > ===============
      >
      > J: There's nothing to this effect in the Satipatthana Sutta.
      >


      It is mentioned in anusota sutta for example.



      > > ===============
      > > > J: Did he teach that the development of awareness required the doing of >specific activities,
      > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      > >
      > > A: Yes! And doing it, unfortunately, in seclusion.
      > > ===============
      >
      > J: So unless one is doing certain specific activities, and doing them in seclusion, there's no possibility of awareness/insight development; is that your understanding?
      >>>>>>


      It is NOT my understanding. It is said so in satipatthana sutta, anapanasati sutta and many others. VsM also talks quite a bit about suitable places for seclusion.

      >===============
      > > > J: Did he teach the selection of specific dhammas as object
      > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
      > >
      > > A: Yes! VsM lists 40. The suttas also have many objects such as corpses in decay, bodyparts, bodily positions, breathing, kasinas, etc.
      > > ===============
      >
      > J: But the kammatthaanas listed in Vism are, generally speaking, not dhammas but subjects/topics/concepts.
      >


      Who cares? You are playing with words here. VsM recommends those (whatever you call them) to do.



      > As mentioned many times here already, understanding the difference between:
      > (a) dhammas as object of awareness/insight development and
      > (b) kammatthaana as subject of samatha contemplation,
      > is crucial, and in fact is a necessary first step. Would you agree with the need to make this distinction?
      >

      B) Can also be objects for insight.

      If there was some problem with kamatthana, then they wouldn't be mentioned in suttas and VsM.







      >J: But again, we are trying to identify those things that are prerequisites, rather than merely recommended options (if in fact there be such).
      >

      Mastery of sila and samadhi is prerequisite for mastery of panna.




      > > ===============
      > > > J: Did he teach that samatha had to be developed first,
      > >
      > > A: Buddha wanted to teach his two SAMATHA masters first because they had little dust in their eyes.
      > > ===============
      >
      > J: Yes, that's correct. And "little dust in their eyes" means well >developed understanding of the vipassana kind.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


      Those arupa jhana teachers developed vipassana?


      >In any event, we have drifted away from the question under >consideration: whether it was the teaching of the Buddha that samatha >has to be developed first.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      For mastery of panna, yes. For getting PhD in Buddhist studies - no.


      Jon, I think with all the spins you are doing - you could be a great lawyer.


      With best wishes,

      Alex
    • jonoabb
      Hi Rob E RE: Hi Jon. RE: I will get into the next part about the Satipatthana sutta later, as I need to look at it to continue the discussion. J: Glad to
      Message 483 of 483 , Oct 1, 2013

        Hi Rob E

         

        RE: Hi Jon. 


        > RE: I will get into the next part about the Satipatthana sutta later, as I need to look at it to continue the discussion.


        > J:  Glad to hear you'll be checking out the text of the sutta for a change!! :-))


        RE:

        :-)  I appreciate what I desperately hope is your humor here, and if so, is very funny. 


        I will get back to you with the usual sutta quotes as soon as I can.  :-)


        Very very funny, Jon.   ; - /


        Best,

        Rob  E.


        - - - - - - - - - -


        J:  You may have forgotten in the confusion over the new format that you have already come back with a quote from the Satipatthana Sutta.  My reply to your message can be found here:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dhammastudygroup/conversations/messages/133161


        Jon

      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.