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Re: Vipassanaa_008 (DT 895 )

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  • htoonaing@ymail.com
    Sukin & Htoo discussion (may be this is the last of this heading/thread) If not respond it is OK. We will stop here. ... Sukin: Hello Htoo, ... Sukin:
    Message 1 of 194 , Jul 28, 2013
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      Sukin & Htoo discussion (may be this is the last of this heading/thread)

      If not respond it is OK. We will stop here.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      Hello Htoo,

      > Without samaadhi there will not be panna.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      Therefore there is no separate practice of concentration to help the
      Eightfold Path. So how does Jhana make it easier for the Path to arise?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      "Samaadhi.m bhaveto, bhikkhave, yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati. Yathaabhuuta.m pajaananto naamaruupa.m vipassati. Naamaruupa.m vipassanto anicca.m passati. Anicca.m passanto dukkha.m passati. Dukkha.m passanto anatta.m vijaanaati. Anatta.m jaananto samudaya.m pahaayati. Samudaya.m pahaayanto nirodha.m bhavissati. Nirodha.m bhavanto nibbaana.m sacchikara.nati."
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo:

      > For the Path it needs many conditions. One of conditions is foundation
      > of pre-path. In pre-path siila has to be observed first but when
      > working with pre-path there are only 5 parts.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      You are saying that before there can be wisdom, there must be some level of accumulated Sila. How did you arrive at this conclusion? You would first have had to hear the Dhamma and therefore had wisdom at the level of pariyatti arise, would you not? If so, does this not make "wisdom" the basis upon which further development occur? Wisdom leads to increase in other kinds of kusala rather than the other way round, is it not?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:
      Far left. Pa.tipatti is the practice to attain pa.tivedha.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------> When this panc`ngika magga or pre-path is being built concentration is
      > needed. If the mind is clouded then the path will not be clear. When
      > not clear then the path-consciousness cannot arise
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      I've seen this kind of reasoning regarding the "mind being clouded' and therefore the need for concentration as means for "seeing" the Truth, exist in other religions as well. What is the difference in
      understanding between your position and theirs in this regard? I can
      understand that in the case of other religions, the perception of "mind being clouded" is the result of wrong view of permanence and of self.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      Even you have right view of impermanence samaadhi is required. Without samaadhi you will not be on the right path.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      As students of the Dhamma, we know that the quality of the citta is
      determined by the accompanying roots, and citta and the accompanying
      cetasika all rise and fall away together in an instant.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      You are talking on citta as if citta is a person. It does not have any quality. It just has characteristic.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      What kind of citta would "concentration" be,
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: It is not vipaaka. So it has to be akusala or kusala
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      and if rooted in wisdom, what kind of
      wisdom?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      That depends on the object. All jhaanas are kusala. All jhaanas are not akusala. Exception is abyaakata-jhaana of arahats.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      If it is the one related to the development of samatha / jhana,
      what relationship does this have to the wisdom of the Eightfold Path?
      Htoo: Sahajaata paccaya. Conascent condition.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      If you are suggesting that a moment of deep samadhi achieved as a result of one kind of wisdom can lead to arising of the other kind of wisdom,please tell me by what paccaya this happens? If you say that this is due to the hindrances being suppressed at those moments, then the question is, by what condition does it remain suppressed in the following moment when the panna is of a different kind?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: Sahajaata
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      More importantly, if wisdom of the Eightfold Path can and must know any reality, be it kusala, akusala or avyakata, why does it suddenly need the hindrances to be suppressed in order to arise?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: NEP knows nibbaana.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      And when it does at that moment, what does it know / understand? Does it know only kusala?
      Can it not know the hindrances themselves?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Htoo: NEP knows nibbaana, I have said that above.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      > Htoo:

      > The best is 4th ruupa-jhaana. If 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th aruupa-jhaana can
      > be attained it is good. Still if not yet possible 3rd, 2nd ruupa
      > jhaanas are good to be in hand. If this is still not possible it is
      > better to attain 1st jhaana.

      > Even if not at jhaana (appanaa-samaadhi), it is better to have
      > upacaara-samaadhi, which has almost the same power like 1st jhaana. In
      > upcaara-samaadhi there is no hindrances no niivara.na dhamma.

      You know what the above sounds like? Promotion of Jhana as means to
      enlightenment and reflection of a lack of confidence in the Noble
      Eightfold Path!!
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      No. Not promotion. It is necessity. It can be seen in many sutta.m. NEP has samaadhi called sammaa-samaadhi.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > If there is niivara.na dhamma there will be slowness to progress in
      > understanding (at experiential level).
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      The Path is developed by repeated arising and panna becomes keener and
      keener by virtue of this process, not due to the hindrances being
      suppressed as result of a practice which is *not* the Path, re: the
      development of samatha / Jhana.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      You are totally wrong.

      Noble Eightfold Path is just a moment. It is at magga kha.na. It is as the result of *practice*. The practice is vipassanaa. The practice is satipa.t.thaana. Without this anyone including Sammaasambuddhas, paccekabuddhas, and all saavaka cannot attain nibbaana.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Sukin:
      > And does the balancing happen as a result of following separate
      > practices for each of the indriyas?
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo:
      > We do not need to set up indriya separately. But when go on there
      > always is imbalance. Then this has to be balanced. In this instance we
      > need upekkha which is best when 4th jhaana can be attained.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      Are we not talking about the Five Indriyas which correspond with the
      Five Balas rather than the other meaning where upekkha is included? Or
      do you mean that with upekkha which comes with the 4th jhana, the
      indriyas are balanced? This latter sounds like a case of someone
      becoming ever more desperate to include Jhana as part of right practice.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      I was not jumping out of the discussion. Upekkhaa is also one of the 7 enlightenment-factors called bojjha`nga. In these there are many of jhaana-factors. Without samaadhi there is no panna.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Htoo:
      > In Mahaa-satipa.t.thaana sutta.m the Buddha guranteed that if follow
      > the teaching as described in that sutta.m average is 7 years for
      > anaagaamii or arahat-ship. This is not my word. It is in sutta.m and
      > what the Buddha said.

      > "Yo hi koci, bhikkhave, ime cattaaro satipa.t.thaane eva.m bhaaveyya
      > satta vassaani tassa dvinna.m phalaana.m a~n~natara.m phala.m
      > paa.tika`nkha.m di.t.theva dhamme a~n~naa sati vaa upaadi sese
      > anaagaamitaa."

      > PS: The fastest is half-day if there is the Buddha as the teacher.
      > This is for neyya puggalas.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      The fastest was less than a minute re: Sariputta.
      In the Satipatthana Sutta, the Buddha was addressing those whose panna
      were developed to the level of indriya / bala, or perhaps even those who in previous lives, had attained some level of vipassanannana. He did not say this to those who've only had occasional satipatthana in the past, let alone those with only pariyatti understanding, and certainly not those who had strong accumulation for wrong practice, the same as 99.999% of the Buddhists today and the last 500 years.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Htoo: This is dilution. This is over-generalization. There are many who are not true Buddhists. If true Theravadan Buddhists they are more than 99.99999% right practice.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Sukin:
      > I mean, what many people believe to be the result of meditation
      > practice. Some not so great, some as being first jhana, second jhana,
      > vipassanannana and even sotapatti or higher, but all in fact delusional.
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo:
      >
      > There is a monk in Myanmar. Bhaddanta Javana called "Myittarshin Shwe
      > Pyii Thar". I quote him because what he said is logical.
      > There are 3 jobs for three separate identities.
      > 1. yogis' job
      > 2. teachers' job
      > 3. dhamma's job
      > Yogis or meditators have to follow and practice according to what the
      > teacher teach.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      Dhamma students should not follow anyone.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo: So you desert all your teachers. This might include the Buddha who originally laid down the dhammas.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:


      They should develop understanding of the Dhamma as taught in the Tipitaka with the present moment as reference point, not even to follow anything just because they read the Buddha as saying so.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      Do you mean that "it is not needed to read what the Buddha said"?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Sukin:

      The Buddha encouraged "understanding" from
      the very beginning as can be seen from what he said to the Kalama people.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      Kaalama sutta.m was preached a bit late. It does not say anything like understanding.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------> Teachers are to guide their meditator-students to the right way. But
      > not to decide whether his student is sotapanna or his student attains
      > jhaana.

      > Dhamma's job is realization.

      > As you said some are delutional. But not all.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Sukin:

      If the teacher teaches and the students learn, with the idea of "self",
      then automatically this is aimed at some result and this cause would be
      the wrong cause. This means that both are delusion from the very
      beginning and will be so in the middle and more so in the end. The
      Dhamma being good in the beginning, good in the middle and good in the
      end is about the development of pariyatti leading to patipatti and to
      pativedha. And this is with detachment all the way through, no idea of a
      "self" who has to do anything in order to receive anything.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:


      "Sahaavassa dassana sampadaaya tayassu dhammaa jahita bhavanti. Sakkaaya di.t.thi viicikicchita~nca siilabbata.m vaa pi yadatthi ki~nci. Ida.m pi sa.mghe yatana.m pa.niita.m etena saccena suvatthi hotu."

      Di.t.thi (the cetasika ditthi) is eradicated at the moment when path consciousness arises. Before this there can be ditthi. You seem to eradicate ditthi even before magga-citta arise while still doing nothing of NEP.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Sukin:

      > Earlier while making the point of dhamma meditator / students in
      > Myanmar not overlooking need to study the Tipitaka, you had said that
      > some of them after attainment, would check with the texts to make sure
      > that what they attained was correct.
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo:
      > If I said that it might well be tongue slip. In a case of a man who
      > was the pupil of Ledi Sayadaw he understood that he had not attained
      > path (magga) a few days before his attainment. He read the texts again
      > even though he got the method of practice. After a few days he
      > attained the path but not arahat-ship. After attainment he reproached
      > his family whom he deserted for about more than 10 years.


      If I told you that through studying with the K. Sujin and with this and
      that happening along the way, I have finally become a Sotapanna, would
      you believe me? If you do not, please explain why?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      Definitely not if there was no practice of satipatthaana. Because there is no sammaa-sa`nkappa, no sammaa-samaadhi and so on.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Sukin:
      > You mean after "hearing the Dhamma" and "associating with the wise",
      > you look for a "wise teacher" out there to teach you something which
      > otherwise cannot happen?
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo:
      > For sotapanna-ship teacher is needed.
      > "Yathaabhuuta.m ~naa.naaya satthaa pariyesitabbo_Sampayutta Nikaaya"
      ---------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      What is the difference in understanding of the "wise" from whom one
      initially hears the true Dhamma and continues to associate with, and the
      "teacher" who then leads one to become a Sotapanna?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------Htoo:

      Even the dhamma was true the ear could not have been true. When the teacher does not practice anything the pupil also does not practice anything. Now is 2013. It is not the age when understanding on hearing dhamma finishes everything. Nowadays it is neyya age. Have to *do* practice. Without practice without *doing* is to say "not walking on the path". Even simple viriya or effort is not enough to arise magga citta. I do not say `wanting magga' `fastly develop magga naana' or anything like that. But if there is no *practice* then the whole life will be uselessly wasted and if die with this thought then this will lead directly to niraya. (Because denied what the Buddha taught).
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Sukin:
      > After hearing the Buddha teach, some of his disciples had to look for
      > teachers to learn meditation? So the Dhamma spoken by the Buddha alone
      > was not enough for his disciples, and they needed something "more"
      > from his enlightened savakas?
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo: Please check that in sutta.ms.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:


      I know about such stories regarding the Buddha suggesting to some
      disciple to go to this or that elder for further instructions.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Htoo: Wrong. False. One was sent to an arahat who was about 7-year-old one.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Sukin:
      And in some cases, these elders gave a meditation subject to contemplate upon.
      You read this as further instructions.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Htoo: Totally wrong.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Sukin:

      I read it as the Buddha knowing
      what exactly would act as pakatupanissaya paccaya for panna to arise in the case of someone ready for enlightenment.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Htoo: You said you are in infant stage in dhamma. Here the Buddha saw that `maana' in that elder tipi.takadhara monk stopped him to be enlightened. The 7 year old one ask him to do sweeping, carring water walking into lake and soaked. After some threshing the elder was taught to catch reptile at the mind door while all other 5 doors have to be shut.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Sukin:
      > The reference to "moment to moment" is saying that panna develops only
      > in relation to what appears "now" and at any given moment, there is
      > only ever "now" to be known. I don't believe in the idea of being
      > mindful all the time, except only when it is bhavanga cittas.
      > ----------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo:

      > When almost everything arises at door is known there left bhavanga
      > cittas. If bhavanga cittas are not that much the meditators can know
      > that there are gaps in between meditative mind.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:

      See, here itself is expression of wrong understanding. Would
      understanding perceive as "gaps between meditative mind" or rather as
      gaps between sense door and mind door processes or mind door and mind
      door processes?
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Htoo: You are thinking on what you ever read and not understanding(dictionary word) what I worte.
      This is practical matter and you will not be able to in line with it.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Sukin:

      And you really believe that understanding of these gaps (bhavanga
      cittas) come after one has continuous mindfulness of the vitthi cittas?
      To me this is wrong thinking / conclusion as a result of wrong
      understanding about the nature of dhammas, particularly the development
      of the Path.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------

      Htoo: You are wrong. Viithi cittas are in abhidhamma. You cannot see this or that is a viithi citta. When you understand something it has arisen and fallen away. Many many many cittas.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Sukin:
      > Right understanding begins with pariyatti level. Patipatti can begin
      > to arise only after this pariyatti level has been accumulated over
      > many lifetimes.
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Htoo:
      > So you will be waiting learning pariyatti and waiting for the right
      > conditions to arise. OK that is your choice.
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Sukin:


      It would be attachment to self which is "waiting for right conditions".

      You are projecting your own tendency to this into what some of us have
      been saying.

      What is encouraged is understanding "now" and the
      detachment which comes with this, rather than thinking in terms of the
      past and future with attachment.

      When I observed the sudden boom in the erection of Hindu statues in
      front of business establishments in Bangkok in recent years, I see this as growing superstition as a result of attachment and the lack of
      understanding.

      I see the flocking towards, and reasoning in support of,
      "formal meditation" as similarly motivated.


      I think there is nothing new that can be said by either of us. So
      perhaps we should drop this discussion. What do you think?

      Metta,

      Sukin
      ----------------------------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      That is fine.

      With Metta,

      Htoo Naing
    • htoonaing@ymail.com
      Sukin wrote: Can you please explain to me, how the hindrances act as hindrances to the arising and development of samma ditthi? ... Htoo: Niivara.nas are
      Message 194 of 194 , Aug 26, 2013
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        Sukin wrote:

        Can you please explain to me, how the hindrances act as hindrances to the arising and development of samma ditthi?
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        Niivara.nas are akusala. Akusala will not lead to sammaa-di.t.thi. When niivara.nas come they proliferate and there will be more and more akusala. These akusala may lead to pariyu.t.thaana to viitikkama kilesaa and then duccarita will arise. Duccarita break siila and then leads to wrong path.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        After you do this, can you also tell me where "Jahna practice" fits into this?
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        Jhaana cittas are ruupa-kusala-jhaana-cittas and aruupa-kusala-jhaana cittas. They are tihetuka cittas. They do have pa~n~nindriya cetasika as their component. When wild mind can well be put under control of jhaana it is very easy to lead higher citta like anuttara cittas and vimutta cittas. Before entering jhaana there is contemplation. At emerging jhaana there also is contemplation. Contemplation of what. Contemplation on dhammas. What dhammas? Arising dhammas and arisen dhammas. As jhaana-cittas have just arisen these jhaana cittas and jhaana cetasikas are contemplated. There is no control there is on one there is subject there is no puggala but arising of kaamaavacara-mahaakusala-javana-cittas cognizing on jhaana cittas, jhaana cetasikas and then the general makers of these dhammas called anicca, dukkha, anatta become evident.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        I mean, how a citta (with accompanying cetasikas) which functions to suppress the hindrances with the aim to maintain concentration,
        influences the next citta (with accompanying cetasikas) which performs a totally different function, namely understanding the nature of a nama or rupa dhamma?
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        You are tracking theoretical dreaming and not so practical. Pa~n~na suppress niivara.na. Pa~n~naa maintain samaadhi. Pa~n~naa influences the next cittas. Pa~n~na see(realize or parivajjhati) naama or ruupa and it changes its name as pa.tivedha. This only happen at the time of magga kha.na.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        Panna is sankhara, therefore accumulates with each arsing. It is
        illogical and strange then, to suggest that the hindrances are not
        hindrances to lower levels of panna, but are so to higher levels.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        The angle of view might cover your eyes not to see things as they really are.

        For the beginners there always are akusala mixed with kusala in the process of vipassanaa. If akusalas are not known then akusala will not be eradicated.

        But when samaadhi has to enter the power of indriya, bala, bojjha`nga and magga`nga then niivara.nas do hinder arising of magga.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        Now we can talk about "doing" again.

        Is the *doing* of meditation any more or less a "doing" than say, me
        typing this message or you reading it? If so, by virtue of which
        particular dhamma or set of dhammas this is? What exactly is
        "development" and how is that a *doing*?
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        There are actions. Verbs represent 'actions'.

        There are

        1. verb-to-be
        2. verb-to-have
        3. verb-to-do

        Typing is *doing*. It is not 'is/be' it is not 'have'. But it is *doing*.

        Reading is not 'being' not 'having'. It is *doing*

        Developing exactly is "growing in power, growing in accumulation, growing in everything."

        "Yaadisa.m vapate biija.m, taadisa.m harate phala.m"

        With Metta,

        Htoo Naing
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