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Re: anattaa.

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  • htoonaing@ymail.com
    ... Sarah: Dear Htoo, ... ... S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the
    Message 1 of 56 , Jul 13, 2013
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      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
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      Sarah:

      Dear Htoo,

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@" <htoonaing@> wrote:

      > > Mahaasii instruct to concentrate on abdomen. Rising and falling. AT first call in the mind as 'rising and falling'. Later instructed to concentrate on the sense of 'tenseness' and 'looseness'. Paramattha is there. It is vaayo. Vaayo here works as object. It is ruupa. It is vayo pho.t.thabba. So it is kaayaanupassanaa.
      ...
      S: Yes, this is what Mahasi Sayadaw taught, but it is not what the Buddha taught. There is no concentrating on the abdomen in the Tipitaka or ancient commenteris, no first "call in the mind as 'rising and falling' etc, then the later insturctions you mention.
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      Htoo:

      This is because disparity between two persons two people. Your brain's wave length and Mahasi Sayadaw's brain's wave length are totally unmatched.

      There were fighting among Mahasi's followers and Pa Auk Sayadaw's followers. Mahasi Sayadaw was a respected Mahaa Thera. He was taken the position of "Sa.tha`ngiiti Pucchaka Sayadaw". He well digested tipi.takas. What he wrote were all flawless. Even there is no punctuation error. He stayed according to Vinaya. He went to the forest in Thathon Township. He had stayed and slept in cemetry. Cemetries in Myanmar are not like in the West at his time. Recently dead, 2-day-old corpse etc were deserted. He went through all possible as in tipi.takas.

      While some other Sayadaws's writing were checked and not passed to general population according to decisions of Vinaya-teams, Mahasi Sayadaw's writing were flawless and error free. Small errors such as dropping comma, missing fullstop (in Myanmar _tha wai htoe ka sa pyin za yar ma lo bhuu). Mahasi Sayadaw preached desanakkama but always always always include pa.tipatti things not just pariyatti only. The instructions he gave were just for simplification but when in the centre he always explained in accordance with tipi.taka.
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      Saha:

      Such instructions are not compatible with the development of satipatthana and the understanding of dhammas as anatta.
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      Htoo:

      All these have been discussed in above bays.
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      Sarah:

      They are based on an idea of a self being able to select an object and a looking for a short-cut, a simplification to develop awareness, motivated by a wish for results, a growth of understanding, but not an understanding of what realities, such as hardness, motion are. There is no understanding of what is meant by kaayaanupassanaa at such times.
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      Htoo:

      This is totally wrong.

      There are things which stop arising of magga ~naa.na. One of them is accusation on simless saints.
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      Saha:

      I appreciate the way that the Pali texts have been shared and made available by such Sayadaws, but not the wrong practices which are not in conformity with these texts.
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      Htoo:

      There are recordings on Cha.tthasa`ngaayanaa. His practice did conform with texts. You should have met him personally.

      Once a group of foreigners with many people came and visited Mahasi Meditation Centre (Tharthanart Yeikthar). They met Mahasi Sayadaw. Mahasi Sayadaw sent them to another Mahasi Sayadaw (Bhaddanta Sujaata). That Sayadaw spoke Paa.li and the foreigners who initially behaved like micchaaditthi a~n~natitthi they finally worshipped that Mahasi Sayadaw and called for Saadhu! three times after hearing dhamma.
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      Sarah:

      I think it is the same with the Abhidhamma and detail brought to Thailand by teachers such as A.Naeb with the help of the Sayadaws - wonderful for people to have access to the Teachings, but not to these practices revolving around the idea of a Self taking action and being aware.
      ...
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      Htoo:

      I think you missed the point.

      Such things happened in the past even in Ledi's time.
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      > >> Some meditators concentrate on where tenseness or looseness exists. Then they are directing to kaayapasaada which just last 17 cittakkha.na. Mahaasii Sayadaw (Late MS) saw or realised that there are bhava`nga cittas as experience.
      ...
      S: Concentrating on particular objects, trying to experience or being directed to sense bases, bhavanga cittas or any other realities is not the understanding of what appears now.
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      Htoo:

      Not particular object. Not bhavanga cittas. What I said is "bhava`nga cittas as experience". Re-read above in the old post. I did not say directing to bhava`nga cittas.
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      Sarah:

      You made some passing reference to slow walking in Hong Kong. I have no idea what you were referring to.
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      Htoo:

      Read in another post today or old posts in 2005. You did wrote 'walking slowly'. At that time we talked on Hong Kong where you said 'windy'.
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      Sarah:

      It makes no difference at all whether one walks fast or slow in terms of the development of awareness and understanding.
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      Htoo:

      This is brain's wave length problem, I think. Buddha did not instruct to walk fast. Vinaya says not to swing arms widely.
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      Sarah:

      There are always realities - it doesn't depend on the way one walks but on the understanding as to whether there is any awareness. If there is any idea of slowing down and trying to be aware, it is wrong view and practice which will just impede such awareness.
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      Htoo:

      This is why some follow one tradition and another follow another tradition. Nissayas are different. You can choose not to meditate. You can choose to understand dhamma arising now whatever way you want.
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      ...
      > > Anatta is seen at first visit to nibbaana.
      > > Anicca is especially seen at second visit to nibbaana.
      > > Asubha is especially seen at third visit to nibbaana.
      > > Dukkha is especially seen at last visit to nibbaana.
      ....
      S: If there is no understanding of realities as anatta now, there will never be any "visit to nibbana".
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      Htoo:

      You need to go through many definitions of atta. Then go through difinition of anatta.

      Can anatta be seen directly without anicca?
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      Sarah:

      These characteristics of realities have to appear before the attainment of the first stage of enlightenment.
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      Htoo:

      They do not need to appear. They are there all the time. The problem is that sattas do not see. No one can see without the help of Buddha.
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      Sarah:
      ...
      > > When asubha is realised then meditators become anaagaamii.
      ...
      S: I think that what you mean is that at the stage of the anagami all preversion of views of dhammas as subha (beautiful) is completely eradicated. Similarly, all perversion of views of dhammas as sukha (satisfatory/happy) is eradicated at stage of arahat.
      > >
      > > Yes, asubha is not a sign of dhamma.
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      Htoo: Nothing need to say here.
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      Sarah:
      ....
      S: All conditioned dhammas are asubha, not subha, because that which arises and falls away cannot be beautiful.

      "Sensing no change in the changing,
      Sensing pleasure in suffering,
      Assuming "self" where there's no self,
      Sensing the un-lovely as lovely â€"
      Gone astray with wrong views,
      beings Mis-perceive with distorted minds."
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.049.olen.html

      Metta

      Sarah
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      Htoo:

      Thanks Sarah for your kind criticsim.

      Ledi Sayadaw taught

      There are 2. They are naama and ruupa in the whole universe.
      There are 3. They are sukha, dukkha, and adukkhamasukha.
      There are 4. They are dukkha, samudaya, nirodha, and magga.
      There are 5. They are

      1. ruupakkhandhaa ( 28 ruupas)
      2. vedanaakkhandhaa
      3. sa~n~naakkhandhaa
      4. sa`nkhaarakkhandhaa
      5. vi~n~naa.nakkhandhaa

      There are 6. Cakkhu, sota, ghaana, jivhaa, kaaya, mano

      If go through abhidhammaa more than 100,000 dhammas and these cannot be directly seen in real life.

      Workability first. There is no time. Today is neyya time. No practice no attainment.

      With Unlimited Metta,
      Friend in Dhamma
      Htoo Naing
    • sarah
      Dear Alex, ... .... S: It s an illusion, Alex. Just thinking which is conditioned with sanna which marks and remembers each object. This is how a baby learns
      Message 56 of 56 , Aug 25 6:11 AM
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        Dear Alex,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:

        > >S:Can you control what seeing sees now, what hearing hears now, what >thinking thinks about now?
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        >A: I can decide to look to the left and see what is there. I can decide to look to the right and see there. I can decide to listen to this or that mp3 file on my computer.
        >
        > If I decide to think "what is 1+1?" I can do that.
        ....
        S: It's an illusion, Alex. Just thinking which is conditioned with sanna which marks and remembers each object. This is how a baby learns to recognise objects or a child learns to count. Just conditioned dhammas...
        ...

        > >Can you have calm at will now? Can you control whether pleasant or >painful bodily feeling arises now or not?
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        >A: I don't have much skill in samatha yet, but those people who do - often can control many things about what they feel and don't feel.
        ....
        S: Never mind about "those people". Now, when there is wise reflection about present realities, such as pleasant or unpleasant bodily feeling or tangible object experienced, the citta is calm....for a moment.
        ...

        > >S: Is seeing dhamma? Is visible object dhamma? When hardness is >experienced now, is it real? Does it belong to a self?
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        >
        >A: It depends what is implied by "belonging to a self".
        ...
        S: There is just the experiencing of hardness. No self involved at all at such moments.

        Metta

        Sarah
        p.s I'll have to ask others to continue these discussions for now.
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