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[dsg] Walking Meditation [Re: Gacchanto vaa gacchaamii'ti pajaanaati.]

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  • sarah
    Dear Htoo, ... ... S: Those dhammas which arise now, whether we re sitting or walking, do so by conditions. There will never be the growth of understanding by
    Message 1 of 379 , Jul 12, 2013
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      Dear Htoo,

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." <htoonaing@...> wrote:

      > When walk try to know walking. At first 'say in mind'. SO that mind cannot sway. 'walking' 'walking' 'walking'. Later he understands that from the very first movement to the last movement just before to stop to stand there are many things happen. Arising and falling away. All are kaayavinnaa.na cittas arising and falling away.
      ...
      S: Those dhammas which arise now, whether we're sitting or walking, do so by conditions. There will never be the growth of understanding by repeating words or trying to control the mind.
      ...
      >
      > Mahaasii Sayadaw instructed to walk as if feeble person as if an ill person. That is slowly. Very slowly (I rember Sarah's word 'walking slowly in Hong Kong).
      ..
      S: ??? No, I've never suggested walking slowly or feebly as a way to develop understanding. This is the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, the opposite of developing understanding and awarness naturally, no matter what realities arise at this moment. It is the (wrong) idea of trying to control or guide realities, not understanding their conditioned nature at all.
      ...
      >During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken.
      ...
      S: This is just thinking about one's own body, concentrating on one's body, not the understanding of realities, let alone the impermanence of those realities.
      ...
      >
      > This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana.
      ...
      S: Again, I disagree. First there has to begin to be the clear understanding of namas and rupas now and the distinction - just those realities which experience an object and those which don't experience anything. No self, no body, no walking, no pressing down at all.

      Metta

      Sarah
      ======
    • sarah
      Dear Htoo, Before I forget, I just want to say that I thought your post #131749 Vipassana 017 discussing the Dhammacakkapavattaa Sutta and 4NT was the best
      Message 379 of 379 , Jul 17, 2013
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        Dear Htoo,

        Before I forget, I just want to say that I thought your post #131749 Vipassana 017 discussing the Dhammacakkapavattaa Sutta and 4NT was the best since your return. Very clear and useful!

        Back to this topic....

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htoonaing@..." <htoonaing@...> wrote:

        > Htoo:
        >
        > I am not writing on understanding here. Understanding parts have been
        > done in earlier DTs. I wrote 'walking' that is during the action of walking. Word-repeating is not main thing here. Nothing is control here when walking. Arising mind one after another are being contemplated. Direction can be to naama things or ruupa things.
        ....
        S: Why is there any selection at all about what is being contemplated at this or any other time? Isn't this the opposite of understanding with detachment?
        ....

        > Sarah:
        >
        > This is the complete opposite of what the Buddha taught, the opposite of developing understanding and awarness naturally, no matter what realities arise at this moment.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > Magga citta will never never arise naturally. Actually following realities. When in walking ( or sitting, or lying, or standing) arising things are kept being seen.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        ...
        S: Dhammas can only ever arise naturally - even magga citta. Sabbe dhamma anatta! Conditioned realities.
        ....

        > Sarah:
        >
        > It is the (wrong) idea of trying to control or guide realities, not understanding their conditioned nature at all.
        > ...
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > This is not true. Nothing is controlled. Guidance is necessary. Without guidance may lead to unfruitful. The part understanding is as I wrote in today post DT 904 in sacca-~naa.nas of 12 sacca-~naa.na.
        > Here in walking or sitting or standing or lying is for kicca-~naa.nas.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------

        S: Even what we call "guidance" are simply moments of thinking which are conditioned too. There can be understanding and awareness anywhere, anytime at all of any object which appears ...naturally.

        Kicca nana - to perform.... the development of satipatthana. The right understanding of the 4NT beginning with the understanding of the khandhas subject to clinging. For example, visible object which appears now is khandha which can be known directly when it appears. No need to think of posture or any activity or special guidance at all. Just the element which is seen at this very moment for an instant.

        The same applies to seeing, hearing or any other conditioned dhamma appearing now. It's not a matter of focussing or attending or of self doing anything at all. Just understanding what appears!
        ....
        > > >H: During this slow walking there arise sense of tenseness, lightness, moving up, heaviness, pressing down and so on. All these happen on body. When dhamma is directly seen then 'santati' is broken.
        > ...
        > S: This is just thinking about one's own body, concentrating on one's body, not the understanding of realities, let alone the impermanence of those realities.
        > ...
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > You had better fulfill all bojjha`ngas and magga`ngas. If you are fulfilling then you will see that arising dhammas have so and so characters as your own understanding not by-heart-learnt things.
        ...
        S: The understanding has to begin to develop now by becoming familiar with and knowing what appears. No self to fulfill or do anything.

        This is why we talk a lot about different realities - in order to see that there is nothing else.
        > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        > > >H: This is very first step of 'sammasana's work. The first vipassanaa ~naa.na. Before this there are 2 ~naa.na which are not directly vipassanaa. They are naamaruupavavatthaana ~naa.na or naamaruupapariccheda ~naana.
        > ...
        > S: Again, I disagree.
        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Htoo:
        >
        > Why not?
        ...
        S: Actually, it depends on the way of counting the vipassana nanas and whether it starts at the third stage of tender insight (sammasana nana) as you indicate or at the first stage (nama-rupa vipassana nana) which I was thinking of. I believe there are other ways as well.

        So we're both correct . I added the following in my comment:

        > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        > Sarah:
        >
        > First there has to begin to be the clear understanding of namas and rupas now and the distinction - just those realities which experience an object and those which don't experience anything. No self, no body, no walking, no pressing down at all.

        Metta

        Sarah
        =====
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