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Re: Quote from Survey. 2.

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  • sarah
    Dear Dieter, ... ... S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the
    Message 1 of 26 , Jul 7, 2013
      Dear Dieter,

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

      > S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used.
      > ...
      > D: the question was why these individuals are described > by Abhidhamma, the teaching of absolute/higher truth , although 'these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas '.
      ...
      S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the time, when they heard descriptions about different individuals, there was no doubt that what was being described were various elements, various khandhas, no atta at all.
      ...
      > As the Elders considered it necessary to copy (this personal) part of the Sutta Pitaka to the Abh.basket , then I have difficulities to understand
      > your floccinaucinihilipilification of conventional or mundane truth/understanding
      ...
      S: That's a new word for me! As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised.
      ...
      ...
      > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?
      >
      > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta :
      ...
      S: You give many quotes, but I don't see any reference to "the samadhi sequence" or any suggestion of the path factors arising in sequences or steps.
      ...
      > (D: Learning from eachother... isn't that the core of Mahaacunda Sutta?)
      > ...
      > S: Praising what is 'right' and learning what is praiseworthy. While I agree with you that disagreements should be courteous and respectful, this doesn't mean there should be compromise over what is taught by the Buddha.
      >
      >
      > D: you are right : no compromise what is taught by the Budhha but having very well in mind the ways of teaching ..
      > S:N. 36/19 (extract)
      > "The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings.[1] So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation.
      ...
      S: Yes, "different ways of presentation", but only one path.
      ...
      > Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words."Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who agree with, consent to, and accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will live in concord and amity, without dispute, like milk (that easily mixes) with water, looking at each other with friendly eyes."
      ...
      S: Good quote and sutta. Thank you for sharing it and for your detailed post.

      Metta

      Sarah
      =====
    • Dieter Moeller
      Dear Sarah, ... ... S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the
      Message 2 of 26 , Jul 9, 2013
        Dear Sarah,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

        > S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used.
        > ...
        > D: the question was why these individuals are described > by Abhidhamma, the teaching of absolute/higher truth , although 'these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas '.
        ...
        S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the time, when they heard descriptions about different individuals, there was no doubt that what was being described were various elements, various khandhas, no atta at all.
        ...
        D:> As the Elders considered it necessary to copy (this personal) part of the Sutta Pitaka to the Abh.basket , then I have difficulities to understand
        > your floccinaucinihilipilification of conventional or mundane truth/understanding
        ...
        S: That's a new word for me!

        D: I stumbled upon the word in the dictionary ..amusing origin , I wonder about the pronounciation ;-)

        S:As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised.

        D: I can't recall such statement ....wondering whether you would agree to that the 4 Noble Truths cannot deeply penetrated without understanding why ' the five clinging-aggregates (in other words citta,cetasikha and rupa attachment) are, in short, suffering' ?.



        ...
        > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?
        >
        > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta :
        ...
        S: You give many quotes, but I don't see any reference to "the samadhi sequence" or any suggestion of the path factors arising in sequences or steps.

        D: I assumed you would read the Culavedalla Sutta:

        'Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated."
        "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"

        "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."



        example Dhammapada:

        281. Let a man be watchful of speech, well controlled in mind, and not commit evil in bodily action. Let him purify these three courses of action, and win the path made known by the Great Sage.

        282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase

        i.e. 281: sila . 282: samadhi and panna

        as mentioned the Buddha spoke in numerous suttas of the path training :sila, samadhi, panna.





        S:Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?



        D:I did not say that the path factors arising in sequences .. but - as it has been stated - that the training in virtue provides the support for the training of the samadhi part , which gives support for the panna part





        What is wrong with calling the gradual training 'steps' ? quoting again:

        Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.

        - Ud 5.5

        Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70



        with Metta Dieter




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sarah
        Dear Dieter, ... .... S: Yes, suffering because they are impermanent. This can only be known by understanding all kinds of namas and rupas as they are when
        Message 3 of 26 , Jul 17, 2013
          Dear Dieter,

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

          > S:As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised.
          >
          > D: I can't recall such statement ....wondering whether you would agree to that the 4 Noble Truths cannot deeply penetrated without understanding why ' the five clinging-aggregates (in other words citta,cetasikha and rupa attachment) are, in short, suffering' ?.
          ....
          S: Yes, suffering because they are impermanent. This can only be known by understanding all kinds of namas and rupas as they are when they appear.

          As Htoo explained very clearly in #131749 there must be sacca nana of the 4NT (very firm intellectual right understanding, followed by kicca nana, (the development of satipatthana), direct right understanding, followed by kata nana (realisation of the Truths).
          ...
          > ...
          > > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?
          > >
          > > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta :

          > D: I assumed you would read the Culavedalla Sutta:

          > 'Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated."
          > "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"
          ...
          S: No suggestion of "samadhi sequence" here or elsewhere in the quotes you gave.
          >
          > "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."
          ...
          S: These are the various factors that arise together with right understanding. There cannot be the path factors included under sila or samadhi without right understanding as forerunner.
          ...
          >

          > D:I did not say that the path factors arising in sequences .. but - as it has been stated - that the training in virtue provides the support for the training of the samadhi part , which gives support for the panna part
          ...
          S: If we are talking about the path, it is panna which is the leader.
          ...
          > What is wrong with calling the gradual training 'steps' ? quoting again:
          >
          > Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
          >
          > - Ud 5.5
          >
          > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70
          ...
          S: This is talking about the gradual path, not about which path factors arise first. The gradual training begins with right understanding now.

          Metta

          Sarah
          =====
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Sarah, Dieter, Jagkrit, I am glad about the text Jagkrit referred to. How gradual it is. And good: it begins with right understanding now, that is, of the
          Message 4 of 26 , Jul 25, 2013
            Dear Sarah, Dieter, Jagkrit,
            I am glad about the text Jagkrit referred to. How gradual it is. And good: it begins with right understanding now, that is, of the present reality. What else there is?
            Nina.
            Op 17 jul 2013, om 10:36 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven:

            > Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
            > >
            > > - Ud 5.5
            > >
            > > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70
            > ...
            > S: This is talking about the gradual path, not about which path factors arise first. The gradual training begins with right understanding now.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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