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Re: on understanding was: re: science and Dhamma don

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  • truth_aerator
    Dear Nina, all, ... Perhaps if one avoids thinking about what has appeared then there is right understanding, right? With best wishes, Alex
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 29, 2013
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      Dear Nina, all,

      >N: But it seems that many words are needed here, a lot of thinking
      >going on. Each object that appears, such as visible object or sound,
      >is gone immediately. There is no time to think stories about them.
      >Right understanding can understand whatever appears as it is without
      >thinking stories about them.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      Perhaps if one avoids thinking about what has appeared then there is right understanding, right?


      With best wishes,

      Alex
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Alex, ... N: It is not the matter of avoiding anything, that is not possible when a reality has arisen already. Also thinking is real and it is different
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 30, 2013
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        Dear Alex,
        Op 29-jun-2013, om 18:46 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

        > Perhaps if one avoids thinking about what has appeared then there
        > is right understanding, right?
        -------
        N: It is not the matter of avoiding anything, that is not possible
        when a reality has arisen already. Also thinking is real and it is
        different from seeing. When right understanding has developed more by
        listening, listening again and again, it knows that thinking has this
        characteristic and seeing has that characteristic, without having to
        think about it.
        Nina.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • truth_aerator
        Dear Nina, all, ... Isn t it preferable to avoid wrong views and cultivate right views? With best wishes, Alex
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 30, 2013
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          Dear Nina, all,

          >N: It is not the matter of avoiding anything, that is not possible
          >when a reality has arisen already.
          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

          Isn't it preferable to avoid wrong views and cultivate right views?


          With best wishes,

          Alex
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Alex, ... N: It is pa~n~naa that knows wrong view when it arises or right view when it arises. It all depends on pa~n~naa whether they are known or not.
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 30, 2013
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            Dear Alex,
            Op 30-jun-2013, om 13:47 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

            > N: It is not the matter of avoiding anything, that is not possible
            > >when a reality has arisen already.
            > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
            >
            > Isn't it preferable to avoid wrong views and cultivate right views?
            ------
            N: It is pa~n~naa that knows wrong view when it arises or right view
            when it arises. It all depends on pa~n~naa whether they are known or
            not.
            ------
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • truth_aerator
            Dear Nina, all, ... Is panna passive, a vipaka citta? With best wishes, Alex
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 30, 2013
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              Dear Nina, all,

              >N:It is pa~n~naa that knows wrong view when it arises or right view
              >when it arises. It all depends on pa~n~naa whether they are known or
              >not.
              >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

              Is panna passive, a vipaka citta?


              With best wishes,

              Alex
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Alex, ... N: It can arise with sobhana cittas. Thus, vipaakacittas like rebirth- consciousness is included. But when we speak about pa~n~naa that
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 1, 2013
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                Dear Alex,
                Op 30-jun-2013, om 16:10 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

                > Is panna passive, a vipaka citta?
                -------
                N: It can arise with sobhana cittas. Thus, vipaakacittas like rebirth-
                consciousness is included. But when we speak about pa~n~naa that
                understand realities it is by no means passive. It can be developed
                and there are many degrees of it.
                The Atthasālinī gives a definition of understanding:

                quotation

                Understanding has the penetration of intrinsic nature, unfaltering
                penetration as its characteristic, like the penetration of an arrow
                shot by a skilled archer; illumination of the object as its function,
                as it were a lamp; non-perplexity as its manifestation, as it were a
                good guide in the forest.
                --------
                Pa~n~naa is one of the perfections to be developed, it is foremost.
                To be developed in order to realize the four noble Truths.
                The whole of the teachings are about its development.

                Nina.






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • truth_aerator
                Dear Nina, all, ... So, I believe this is where intentional effort at developing panna comes in. Panna does not appear by itself. It is not God s grace, or
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 1, 2013
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                  Dear Nina, all,

                  >Alex: Is panna passive, a vipaka citta?
                  >----------------------------------------
                  >N:...But when we speak about pa~n~naa that understand realities it is >by no means passive. It can be developed and there are many degrees of >it.
                  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                  So, I believe this is where intentional effort at developing panna comes in. Panna does not appear by itself. It is not God's grace, or undeserved gift. It something that is developed.


                  With best wishes,

                  Alex
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Alex, ... N: Agreed, pa~n~naa has to be developed. Understanding of what? Of a table or a person or a story, or: realities. Then we have to know first
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 2, 2013
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                    Dear Alex,
                    Op 1-jul-2013, om 17:17 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

                    > So, I believe this is where intentional effort at developing panna
                    > comes in. Panna does not appear by itself. It is not God's grace,
                    > or undeserved gift. It something that is developed.
                    ------
                    N: Agreed, pa~n~naa has to be developed. Understanding of what? Of a
                    table or a person or a story, or: realities. Then we have to know
                    first what realities are. What are the objects of pa~n~naa of the
                    eightfold Path? Naama and ruupa that appear just one at a time
                    through one of the six doors. Not a table or a person. When pa~n~naa
                    of the eightfold Path arises there is right effort already and no
                    need to think of intentional effort. If one thinks of intentional
                    effort there is likely to be an idea of self who has that.
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • thomaslaw03
                    Dear all, ... T: Realities (body and mind, phenomena) are not-self (anatta). Seeing them as not-self, he/she attains the calming of all activities,
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 2, 2013
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                      Dear all,

                      > Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Alex,
                      > Op 1-jul-2013, om 17:17 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:
                      >
                      > So, I believe this is where intentional effort at developing panna
                      > comes in. Panna does not appear by itself. It is not God's grace,
                      > or undeserved gift. It something that is developed.
                      > ------
                      > N: Agreed, pa~n~naa has to be developed. Understanding of what? Of > a table or a person or a story, or: realities. Then we have to know
                      > first what realities are. What are the objects of pa~n~naa of the
                      > eightfold Path? Naama and ruupa that appear just one at a time through one of the six doors. Not a table or a person. When pa~n~naa
                      > of the eightfold Path arises there is right effort already and no
                      > need to think of intentional effort. If one thinks of intentional
                      > effort there is likely to be an idea of self who has that.
                      ----

                      T: Realities (body and mind, phenomena) are not-self (anatta). Seeing them as not-self, he/she attains "the calming of all activities, renunciation of all attachment, the destruction of craving, the fading away of desire, cessation, nirvana" (sabbasan.khaarasamthe, sabhuupadhipa.tinissagge, ta.nhakkhaye, viraage, nirodhe, nibbaane). This is the so-called pa~n~naa in Early Buddhism.

                      Thomas
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