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Re: sila/satipatthana/karaoke

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  • truth_aerator
    Phil, #2 is better ... You can t have true calm without sati and panna. The way the critique of 2nd option is made is totally incorrect and strawman. With best
    Message 1 of 20 , Jun 26, 2013
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      Phil,

      #2 is better

      >Which is better: 1. a few moments of true sati and sampajanna (even if >only very weak) coming in at a time when we are highly agitated and >seemingly distracted, or 2.a whole year of calm and serenity but
      >with no real sati and panna?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


      You can't have true calm without sati and panna. The way the critique of 2nd option is made is totally incorrect and strawman.


      With best wishes,

      Alex
    • philip
      Hi Alex (*) ... There is true calm with every moment of kusala. The characteristic of true calm is not the characteristic of acting calm with desire for
      Message 2 of 20 , Jun 26, 2013
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        Hi Alex (*)


        > You can't have true calm without sati and panna. The way the critique of 2nd option is made is totally incorrect and strawman.
        >

        There is "true calm" with every moment of kusala. The characteristic of "true calm" is not the characteristic of acting calm with desire for the benefits of being calm. If you want to call a lifetime of the latter (choice #2) which is to say a lifetime of accumulating lobha moha and dying without having heard the true Dhamma a strawman, that's your choice.

        As always, final word to you.

        Phil

        * If I'm not mistaken the Alex referred to in the post is Robert's son.

        Last so
      • truth_aerator
        Hi Phil, all, ... And meditation, *if* it is properly done is kusala. ... Chanda does not have to be akusala, it can be kusala. With best wishes, Alex
        Message 3 of 20 , Jun 26, 2013
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          Hi Phil, all,

          >There is "true calm" with every moment of kusala.

          And meditation, *if* it is properly done is kusala.


          >The characteristic of "true calm" is not the characteristic of acting ?>calm with desire for the benefits of being calm.
          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

          Chanda does not have to be akusala, it can be kusala.


          With best wishes,

          Alex
        • philip
          Hi Alex ... True. Chanda is not necessarily akusala. Phil P.s I didn t give you the last word. What are the factors that conditioned the physical intimation of
          Message 4 of 20 , Jun 26, 2013
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            Hi Alex
            >
            > Chanda does not have to be akusala, it can be kusala.
            >

            True. Chanda is not necessarily akusala.

            Phil

            P.s I didn't give you the last word. What are the factors that conditioned the physical intimation of writing. No way to know. Is 'no way to know' a problem? Why let 'no way to know' whether the motivation to meditate is kusala or not get in the way of just plunking down on a cushion and getting to work on it? Maybe the meditation itself will reveal the nature of the motivation. Panna that is developed through meditation will naturally take care of seeing through any akusala motivations, and they will be transcended.
            I can understand the appeal of this kind of thinking. (Not that it's yours necessarily.) I can also understand the appeal of warm bubble baths and other comforting things to do to deal with the hardships and stress of life. Yes, I know, the zbuddha didn't praise bubble baths.

            Phil
          • truth_aerator
            Hi Phil, all, ... You are correct. But the thing is that some people on this board seem to telepathically know that all meditation is wrong. As if they can see
            Message 5 of 20 , Jun 27, 2013
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              Hi Phil, all,


              >Phil: What are the factors that conditioned the physical intimation of >writing. No way to know. Is 'no way to know' a problem? Why let 'no way >to know' whether the motivation to meditate is kusala or not get in the >way of just plunking down on a cushion and getting to work on it? Maybe >the meditation itself will reveal the nature of the motivation.
              >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

              You are correct. But the thing is that some people on this board seem to telepathically know that all meditation is wrong. As if they can see the mind of those meditators...


              With best wishes,

              Alex
            • truth_aerator
              Hi Phil, all, ... You are correct. But the thing is that some people on this board seem to telepathically know that all meditation is wrong. As if they can see
              Message 6 of 20 , Jun 27, 2013
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                Hi Phil, all,

                >Phil: What are the factors that conditioned the physical intimation of >writing. No way to know. Is 'no way to know' a problem? Why let 'no way >to know' whether the motivation to meditate is kusala or not get in the >way of just plunking down on a cushion and getting to work on it? Maybe >the meditation itself will reveal the nature of the motivation.
                >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                You are correct. But the thing is that some people on this board seem to telepathically know that all meditation is wrong. As if they can see the mind of those meditators...


                With best wishes,

                Alex
              • philip
                Hi Alex all ... To point out - not that it matters because this is just words words words - but the above is quoted out of context. I was laying out that
                Message 7 of 20 , Jun 28, 2013
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                  Hi Alex all
                  >
                  > >Phil: What are the factors that conditioned the physical intimation of >writing. No way to know. Is 'no way to know' a problem? Why let 'no way >to know' whether the motivation to meditate is kusala or not get in the >way of just plunking down on a cushion and getting to work on it? Maybe >the meditation itself will reveal the nature of the motivation.
                  > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
                  >
                  > You are correct. But the thing is that some people on this board seem to telepathically know that all meditation is wrong. As if they can see the mind of those meditators...
                  >

                  To point out - not that it matters because this is just words words words - but the above is quoted out of context. I was laying out that line of thinking as an example of what could go through the meditators mind to justify disregarding greed.

                  Yes it does seem that meditation is automatically written off by students of AS. Some of us have experienced enough to know where the fault lies. For example Sarah who was almost starved to serious illness as a hard core Mahasi devotee. (If I recall correctly she was working in slo mo to serve meals to other "yogis" so didn't have time for her own slo mo munching.) Anyways the meditation debate is really a waste of time because what is important is to develop understanding of the arisen dhamma. . If people wanted to meditate and think it's kusala fine go ahead just don't foist it on others. Actually there aren't many people who do that here. It seems the biggest advocates of meditation here are people such as yourself who don't actually meditate. Which makes sense since if you were actually a serious meditator you wouldn't be here on the Internet all the time.

                  Phil
                • truth_aerator
                  Hello Phil, all, ... Too bad. ... Have they experienced Jhanas, the real ones? What about learning, and counterpart signs for various meditation subjects (up
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jun 28, 2013
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                    Hello Phil, all,


                    >Yes it does seem that meditation is automatically written off by >students of AS.
                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


                    Too bad.


                    >Some of us have experienced enough to know where the fault lies.
                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                    Have they experienced Jhanas, the real ones?

                    What about learning, and counterpart signs for various meditation subjects (up to 40 different objects of meditation).



                    >For example Sarah who was almost starved to serious illness as a hard >core Mahasi devotee.
                    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                    Do other practices. Meditation doesn't start and end with slo mo eating and serving.


                    Just some ideas.
                    ==========


                    Alex
                  • philip
                    Hi Alex I m put on this topic, thanks. Just ping ponging on it here, year after year after year... (@_@) Phil
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jun 28, 2013
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                      Hi Alex

                      I'm put on this topic, thanks. Just ping ponging on it here, year after year after year...

                      (@_@)

                      Phil
                    • sarah
                      Hi Phil, ... ... S: Agree - as you wrote in another message, just momentary dhammas that arise for a moment and fall away . The story you wrote is all mixed
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 4, 2013
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                        Hi Phil,

                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:

                        > Yes it does seem that meditation is automatically written off by students of AS. Some of us have experienced enough to know where the fault lies. For example Sarah who was almost starved to serious illness as a hard core Mahasi devotee. (If I recall correctly she was working in slo mo to serve meals to other "yogis" so didn't have time for her own slo mo munching.) Anyways the meditation debate is really a waste of time because what is important is to develop understanding of the arisen dhamma. .
                        ...
                        S: Agree - as you wrote in another message, "just momentary dhammas that arise for a moment and fall away". The story you wrote is all mixed up, but as you wrote to Mahesh, we have "a good chance to drop the stories occasionally and go deeper into the heart of the Buddha's teaching", so it's unimportant anyway.
                        ....
                        >If people wanted to meditate and think it's kusala fine go ahead just don't foist it on others. Actually there aren't many people who do that here. It seems the biggest advocates of meditation here are people such as yourself who don't actually meditate. Which makes sense since if you were actually a serious meditator you wouldn't be here on the Internet all the time.
                        ...
                        S: I'd also point out that there are also students of Ajahn Sujin who have had/have all sorts of erroneous ideas about attainments, such as ideas of being enlightened, having experienced jhanas and so on. Wrong view and clinging to self are so deeply rooted.

                        Metta

                        Sarah
                        ======
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