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Re: Quote from Survey. 2.

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  • Dieter Moeller
    Dear Sarah, ... ... S: Here are some further comments on this same sutta I wrote quite a long time ago #33934: D: reminds me to pay more attention to the
    Message 1 of 26 , Jun 18, 2013
      Dear Sarah,


      you wrote:
      > Just read the Sutta Han (AN 6:46, Mahaacunda Sutta) quoted with the following at the end:
      >
      > sikkhitabbaá¹f
      >
      > "Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we ourselves are > Dhamma-experts, we will praise also those monks who are meditators.' And why? > Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who have personal experience of > the deathless element (Nibbaana).
      > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves > are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And
      > why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom > clearly understand a difficult subject."
      >
      >
      > D: Satu! This is good and fitting quotation , Sarah. A good reminder for those , who prefer DSG limited to Abhidhamma discussion (respectively their interpretation of it ) and do not seek a common understanding , which - e.g. by above- we are requested to train ourselves.
      ...
      S: Here are some further comments on this same sutta I wrote quite a long time ago #33934:


      D: reminds me to pay more attention to the archive ... I guess 90 % of that what is discussed nowadays has been said in this or that form already.
      Didn't we talk about trying to get some kind of manual for the topics treated ? Some brief review with conclusion (points of agreement,disagreement)..eventually I would participate..


      >S:What is interesting is that when we look at the wording and the commentary notes, it becomes apparent that both groups are ariyan disciples (i.e at
      least sotapannas). The first group have become enlightened without the development of jhanas and the second group with jhanas.

      D: yes, 'such outstanding persons' ..'rare in the world' refers obviously to the Noble Ones .
      But that doesn't mean a benefitial exchange of understanding is not possible at 'householder' level of different personalities,types... i.e. us.

      B.T.W. Nyanatiloka's definition of 'puggala'
      " 'individual', 'person', as well as the synonyms: personality, individuality, being (satta), self (atta), etc., in short all terms designating a personal entity, hence also: I, you, he, man, god, etc., all these, according to Buddhism, are mere names for certain combinations of material and mental processes, and apart from them they have no real existence. They are to be considered as mere 'conventional modes of expression'(vohara-vacana), and on that level they may be used, and are so used in the sutta texts, if taken "without misapprehending them" (s. quote from D. 9 under paramattha). With such tacit reservations, the termpuggala occurs quite frequently in the suttas.In the ultimate sense (paramattha, q.v.), however, there exist only ever-changing physical and mental phenomena, flashing up and dying every moment. - Kath., in its first section, discusses the question whether "in the absolute sense, any personality (puggala) can be found" (s. Guide, pp. 62ff). - See paramattha, anatta."

      leaves the question open, why , if 'personality/individuality ' means ' more conventional modes of expression ' , why these individuals are described
      by Abhidhamma's "Puggalapannatti " An enumeration of the qualities of certain different 'personality types'. These types were believed to be useful in formulating teachings to which an individual would respond positively" (Wiki)

      Conventional truth is valid in its own domain so is classical physics in respect to quantum physics likewise the often quoted mundane right understanding.. an issue , I believe we haven't reached an agreement yet.


      There are - as we know - plenty of suttas discribing different people and different approaches.
      For the distinction of the 2 groups of Mahaacunda Sutta , following extract is quite helpful


      http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books3/Ajahn_Chandako_Samatha_and_Vipassana_in_Harmony.htm
      The distinguishing between samatha and vipassaná as different styles of practice begins to be made in some places in the commentaries. There the terms samathayana and vipassanáyana were coined to describe people whose main emphasis (or ´vehicle´) is either one or the other. Still, the references are few and brief. It is only in the sub-commentaries, written long after the Buddha's time, where these two are developed and described as different paths of practice. It is here that the term ´dry-insight meditator´ (sukkhavipassaka) is introduced. This refers to a person who only develops momentary samádhi, or practices insight meditation without any samatha whatsoever, maintaining a bare, non-discursive, moment to moment observation of the changing process of the body and mind.


      I suppose , the issue of vipassana and samatha is one of the most discussed topics on DSG, just because it seems so 'typical ' for the 2 'camps' ..


      S: When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner'
      developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'.

      D: You are right there is an overlapping . But in general I think one may say the dry-insight worker isn't 'moistured ' by Jhana experience though not assume that
      dry-insight doesn't work .

      S:If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and commentary
      notes, I think.

      D: yes.. and not neglecting contemporary commentary.

      S:The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group of
      'meditators' refers those who have attained jhanas.


      D: if B.Bodhi accepts the term 'preacher' for himself , then we may count the forest monks belonging to the second group, may we not?


      S: Obviously neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any dispute!

      D: yes , having reached the other shore what is the use for both discussing details of the raft

      S:From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group, the 'meditators' have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the
      deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body i.e.cetasikas)'

      The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) b"penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus
      (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna.
      But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends.

      The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna)
      clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana).

      So both groups are enlightened but presumably only the second group have attained jhanas. Obviously there is no suggestion that for the first group
      this is merely an intellectual approach.
      How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment
      should be highly respected.<
      *****

      D: The point of the 'Dhammayoga Bhikkhus' seems to me that they have no chance to get a glimpse of Nibbana on their way to liberation.


      >S: So there were disputes even during the Buddha's life between different groups of ariyan disciples, I think. And so who are we that we could
      possibly be beyond having disputes of any kind?


      D: no doubt about that .. but - and I am sure you agree with me - a dispute should still be led by 'right speech ' ,in particular avoiding being offensive

      S: Any noble or wholesome qualities should be praised and respected and no one has suggested that jhana attainment or the development of samatha
      should not be included in this.< (end old post)
      .....
      D: yes..and I would wish that comments like ' meditation is useless or a wrong path ' are ceasing and replaced by respect for an approach which concerns the samadhi sequence of the Noble Path training...likewise the second group should show openness for the teaching of Abhidhamma and 'ultimate reality'

      Learning from eachother... isn't that the core of Mahaacunda Sutta?

      with Metta Dieter




      ,

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • philip
      Hi Rob E You tossed me a softball, thanks! ü_(^o^)ü^A judgmental post about not being judgmental! If you don t like petty squabbles why contribute to them?
      Message 2 of 26 , Jun 18, 2013
        Hi Rob E


        You tossed me a softball, thanks! _(^o^)^A judgmental post about not being judgmental!

        If you don't like petty squabbles why contribute to them?

        (That is a rhetorical question, I don't need a 500 word essay)

        Seriously, you are right. Thanks. No, seriously. . (Scott imitation. Sigh...)

        Phil
      • philip
        Hi again Rob E That was really too much, sorry. Hiri and otappa arise and tell me that I am having too much fun with wrong speech these days. Perhaps they will
        Message 3 of 26 , Jun 18, 2013
          Hi again Rob E

          That was really too much, sorry. Hiri and otappa arise and tell me that I am having too much fun with wrong speech these days. Perhaps they will condition a reduction of it. No way to be sure of that though.


          Phil


          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi Rob E
          >
          >
          > You tossed me a softball, thanks! _(^o^)^A judgmental post about not being judgmental!
          >
          > If you don't like petty squabbles why contribute to them?
          >
          > (That is a rhetorical question, I don't need a 500 word essay)
          >
          > Seriously, you are right. Thanks. No, seriously. . (Scott imitation. Sigh...)
          >
          > Phil
          >
        • Robert E
          Hi Phil. ... I don t mind - I appreciate a little humor since we are often so serious about fighting things out. I don t know if it s true but it seems that
          Message 4 of 26 , Jun 18, 2013
            Hi Phil.

            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:

            > That was really too much, sorry. Hiri and otappa arise and tell me that I am having too much fun with wrong speech these days. Perhaps they will condition a reduction of it. No way to be sure of that though.

            I don't mind - I appreciate a little humor since we are often so serious about fighting things out. I don't know if it's true but it seems that that kind of over-seriousness is probably an expression of self-view.

            As for the comments in the prior post, you were right to say that it was a judgmental post about being judgmental. That struck me as being funny too.

            Best,
            Rob E.

            - - - - - - - -


            > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi Rob E
            > >
            > >
            > > You tossed me a softball, thanks! _(^o^)^A judgmental post about not being judgmental!
            > >
            > > If you don't like petty squabbles why contribute to them?
            > >
            > > (That is a rhetorical question, I don't need a 500 word essay)
            > >
            > > Seriously, you are right. Thanks. No, seriously. . (Scott imitation. Sigh...)
            > >
            > > Phil
            > >
            >
          • sarah
            Hi Phil, ... ... S: That was made clear in my other commets. ... .... S: Of course. ... ... S: And the point I d like to make is that there are just dhammas -
            Message 5 of 26 , Jun 19, 2013
              Hi Phil,

              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:

              > > "And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we ourselves
              > > are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are Dhamma-experts.' And
              > > why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom
              > > clearly understand a difficult subject."
              >
              >P: By the way I trust that it is clear to everyone but this sutta clip is saying that people of correct understanding should respect others of correct understanding although the correct understanding is arising in a different way.
              ...
              S: That was made clear in my other commets.
              ...
              >It is is ***not***saying that people of wrong understanding should be respected and praised by people of right understanding.
              ....
              S: Of course.
              ...
              >P: That is just political correctness at work and leads to a dilution of correct understanding. This passage is often used for politically correct reasons here at DSG. It is a misunderstood by people if they believe that it is praising finding common ground between people of wrong understanding and right understanding. There is no common ground between people of wrong understanding and right understanding. Right is right and wrong is wrong. I think that is a point that Scott often made.
              ...
              S: And the point I'd like to make is that there are just dhammas - so better to look at the dhammas and what is said rather than think in terms of people who are 'of wrong understanding and right understanding'.
              ...

              >There is never any doubt about that when I listen to the recorded talks but there is sometimes doubt about that here at DSG. Friendliness is valued at the expense of consistent emphasis on correct understanding.
              ...
              S: You've often mentioned this. If you can quote anything Jon, Nina or I have written which doesn't emphasise 'correct understanding', I'd be glad to see it. Thinking that friendliness is not of importance in our encounters with others would be an example of wrong understanding, as I see it. As Ajahn stressed to Lukas in Poland, we may use as an excuse that dhammas are conditioned, including unfriendliness, but this is "I am anatta" again!

              Metta

              Sarah
              =====
            • sarah
              Dear Dieter, Thank you for your long reply. ... ... S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that
              Message 6 of 26 , Jun 25, 2013
                Dear Dieter,

                Thank you for your long reply.

                Just picking up a few small points and qus only:

                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

                > leaves the question open, why , if 'personality/individuality ' means ' more conventional modes of expression ' , why these individuals are described
                > by Abhidhamma's "Puggalapannatti " An enumeration of the qualities of certain different 'personality types'. These types were believed to be useful in formulating teachings to which an individual would respond positively" (Wiki)
                ...
                S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used.
                ...

                > S:
                > The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma or the Scholars) "penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas (aggregates), the dhatus
                > (elements) the ayatanas (sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta (i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with vipassana panna.
                > But here it should be panna which penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends.

                >The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom (panna)
                > clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize nibbana).
                >
                > So both groups are enlightened but presumably only the second group have attained jhanas. Obviously there is no suggestion that for the first group
                > this is merely an intellectual approach.
                > How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage of enlightenment
                > should be highly respected.<
                > *****
                >
                > D: The point of the 'Dhammayoga Bhikkhus' seems to me that they have no chance to get a glimpse of Nibbana on their way to liberation.
                ...
                S: I don't understand your comment. Regardless of whether jhanas have been attained or not, regardless of whether jhanas are the 'base' of enlightenment, there must be the development of insight, the vipassana nanas, the attainment of sotapatti magga and phala (with nibbana as object), the attainments of the sakadagami and anagami, then full liberation at stage of arahat. Nibbana is the object of all lokuttara cittas regardless.
                ...

                > S: Any noble or wholesome qualities should be praised and respected and no one has suggested that jhana attainment or the development of samatha
                > should not be included in this.< (end old post)
                > .....
                > D: yes..and I would wish that comments like ' meditation is useless or a wrong path ' are ceasing and replaced by respect for an approach which concerns the samadhi sequence of the Noble Path training
                ...
                S: The question is whether any meditation as taught today does concern samadhi of the Noble Path. What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?
                ....
                D:...likewise the second group should show openness for the teaching of Abhidhamma and 'ultimate reality'
                ...
                S: Anyone following the path and becoming enlightened has to understand ultimate realities, present realities.
                ...
                > Learning from eachother... isn't that the core of Mahaacunda Sutta?
                ...
                S: Praising what is 'right' and learning what is praiseworthy. While I agree with you that disagreements should be courteous and respectful, this doesn't mean there should be compromise over what is taught by the Buddha.

                Metta

                Sarah
                =====
              • Dieter Moeller
                Dear Sarah ( all), you wrote: Thank you for your long reply. Just picking up a few small points and qus only: D: ok Sarah ..it is quite difficult to keep it
                Message 7 of 26 , Jun 30, 2013
                  Dear Sarah ( all),

                  you wrote:

                  Thank you for your long reply.

                  Just picking up a few small points and qus only:

                  D: ok Sarah ..it is quite difficult to keep it short , being in line with the canon (quote!) , so even I tried , it is still again a rather long one.


                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

                  > leaves the question open, why , if 'personality/individuality ' means ' more conventional modes of expression ' , why these individuals are described
                  > by Abhidhamma's "Puggalapannatti " An enumeration of the qualities of certain different 'personality types'. These types were believed to be useful in formulating teachings to which an individual would respond positively" (Wiki)
                  ...
                  S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used.
                  ...

                  D: the question was why these individuals are described > by Abhidhamma, the teaching of absolute/higher truth , although 'these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas '.
                  As the Elders considered it necessary to copy (this personal) part of the Sutta Pitaka to the Abh.basket , then I have difficulities to understand
                  your floccinaucinihilipilification of conventional or mundane truth/understanding


                  D: yes..and I would wish that comments like ' meditation is useless or a wrong path ' are ceasing and replaced by respect for an approach which concerns the samadhi sequence of the Noble Path training
                  ...
                  S: The question is whether any meditation as taught today does concern samadhi of the Noble Path.

                  D: There are plenty of well respected meditation schools /teachers , and those will find your question a floccinaucinihilipilification without
                  proving your point.



                  S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?

                  D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta :

                  I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Sanctuary. Then Visakha the lay follower went to Dhammadinna the nun and, on arrival, having bowed down to her, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to her, "'Self-identification, self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"
                  There are these five clinging-aggregates, friend Visakha: form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling as a clinging-aggregate, perception as a clinging-aggregate, fabrications as a clinging-aggregate, consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. These five clinging-aggregates are the self-identification described by the Blessed One

                  snip

                  ""'The cessation of self-identification, the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

                  "The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving: This, friend Visakha, is the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

                  "'The way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification, the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification,' it is said, lady. Which way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification is described by the Blessed One?"

                  "Precisely this noble eightfold path - right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration: This, friend Visakha, is the way of practice leading to the cessation of self-identification described by the Blessed One."

                  snip



                  "Now, again, lady, what is the noble eightfold path?"

                  "This is the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration."

                  "Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?"

                  "The noble eightfold path is fabricated."

                  "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"

                  "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."





                  Dhammapada

                  280. The idler who does not exert himself when he should, who though young and strong is full of sloth, with a mind full of vain thoughts - such an indolent man does not find the path to wisdom.

                  281. Let a man be watchful of speech, well controlled in mind, and not commit evil in bodily action. Let him purify these three courses of action, and win the path made known by the Great Sage.

                  282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase







                  Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.

                  - Ud 5.5

                  Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a teacher].Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates. Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having penetrated it with discernment, sees it.

                  - MN 70





                  many sources more to quote



                  (D: Learning from eachother... isn't that the core of Mahaacunda Sutta?)
                  ...
                  S: Praising what is 'right' and learning what is praiseworthy. While I agree with you that disagreements should be courteous and respectful, this doesn't mean there should be compromise over what is taught by the Buddha.


                  D: you are right : no compromise what is taught by the Budhha but having very well in mind the ways of teaching ..
                  S:N. 36/19 (extract)
                  "The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings.[1] So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation.
                  Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words."Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who agree with, consent to, and accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will live in concord and amity, without dispute, like milk (that easily mixes) with water, looking at each other with friendly eyes."


                  well, I think we are looking at each other with friendly eyes but keep on dancing to different tunes.. if we cannot find a common base , it may be more convenient to return to our seats for the time being.


                  with Metta Dieter


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Dieter, ... N: When we read Human Types we see that it deals with citta, cetasika and ruupa. Like the description of dosa. Many parts are similar to the
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jul 1, 2013
                    Dear Dieter,
                    Op 30-jun-2013, om 19:39 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

                    > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller"
                    > <moellerdieter@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > > leaves the question open, why , if 'personality/individuality '
                    > means ' more conventional modes of expression ' , why these
                    > individuals are described
                    > > by Abhidhamma's "Puggalapannatti " An enumeration of the
                    > qualities of certain different 'personality types'. These types
                    > were believed to be useful in formulating teachings to which an
                    > individual would respond positively" (Wiki)
                    > ...
                    > S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used,
                    > but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional
                    > ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas,
                    > cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such
                    > realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used.
                    > ...
                    >
                    N: When we read "Human Types" we see that it deals with citta,
                    cetasika and ruupa. Like the description of dosa. Many parts are
                    similar to the "Anguttara Nikaaya" suttas as you will see. It starts
                    with the "notion of the groups (khandhas), of sense-organs and their
                    objects..." It also explains about sukha vipassanaa, the development
                    of "dry insight", without the attainment of jhaana.
                    <What sort of person is angry. What then is anger? That which is
                    anger, being angry, and the state of being angry, hatred, hating,
                    hatefulness, malice...">
                    ---------
                    > N: Dieter, you quote very good texts, worth to dwell upon these.
                    >
                    -------
                    >
                    > D: 280. The idler who does not exert himself when he should, who
                    > though young and strong is full of sloth, with a mind full of vain
                    > thoughts - such an indolent man does not find the path to wisdom.
                    >
                    -------
                    N: A reminder of the four right efforts, and these belong to the
                    factors leading to enlightenment. We are already idlers now when
                    dwelling on stories instead of awareness of what presents itself now.
                    There was a discussion here whether all texts refer to
                    satipa.t.thaana. Yes, it is always implied, even when not
                    expressively mentioned.
                    -------
                    >
                    > D:281. Let a man be watchful of speech, well controlled in mind,
                    > and not commit evil in bodily action. Let him purify these three
                    > courses of action, and win the path made known by the Great Sage.
                    >
                    ---------
                    N: This is indriya sa"mvara siila, watchfulness or guarding the
                    senses by way of mindfulness.
                    -------
                    >
                    > D: 282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom
                    > wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a
                    > man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase
                    >
                    -------
                    N: There are so many degrees of calm. Not necessarily absorption for
                    everybody, there is no rule. When listening and considering there is
                    calm with the kusala citta. I quote a text mentioned a long time ago:

                    < from B.Bodhi�s transl:

                    "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the
                    stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212)

                    Note 212 states: (the commentary):
                    Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of
                    knowledge
                    thus even without concentration.
                    This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of
                    concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
                    concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration
                    (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
                    advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore,
                    whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of
                    the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.

                    Spk-pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without
                    previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
                    characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said
                    referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
                    (vipassanayanika)..."

                    JON's summary of Note 212:
                    "Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the
                    concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha).">
                    N: We have to remember that there are two kinds of jhaana (Commentary
                    to the M.N.): jhaana that is absorption as a result of the
                    development of the kammathaana, and the lakkhana jhaana, the
                    penetration of the three characteristics.
                    ------
                    >
                    > D:Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual
                    > inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in
                    > the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a
                    > gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression,
                    > with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
                    >
                    -------
                    N: A good reminder that the development of satipa.t.thaana is very
                    gradual, a long way, a long stretch.
                    ---------
                    >
                    > D: - Ud 5.5
                    >
                    > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once.
                    > Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual
                    > action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis
                    > after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is
                    > the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a
                    > teacher].Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one
                    > lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the
                    > Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning
                    > of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an
                    > agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement
                    > through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has
                    > arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates.
                    > Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an
                    > exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having
                    > penetrated it with discernment, sees it.
                    >
                    -------
                    N: Here listening is emphasized. desire: kusala chanda. Exertion: the
                    four right efforts. It is the effort of the eightfold Path together
                    with right understanding.
                    --------
                    >

                    Thank you for the useful quotes,
                    Nina.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dieter Moeller
                    Dear Nina (Sarah , all) thanks for your comment. you wrote: N: When we read Human Types we see that it deals with citta, cetasika and ruupa. Like the
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jul 1, 2013
                      Dear Nina (Sarah , all)

                      thanks for your comment.

                      you wrote:


                      N: When we read "Human Types" we see that it deals with citta, cetasika and ruupa. Like the description of dosa. Many parts are
                      similar to the "Anguttara Nikaaya" suttas as you will see. It starts with the "notion of the groups (khandhas), of sense-organs and their
                      objects..." It also explains about sukha vipassanaa, the development of "dry insight", without the attainment of jhaana.
                      <What sort of person is angry. What then is anger? That which is anger, being angry, and the state of being angry, hatred, hating,
                      hatefulness, malice...">

                      D: as the teacher is the teaching , there is advantage for each of us to find suttas sources which provide hints for the approach fitting to our type of personality (kamma accumulation) . The Puggala Pannatti serves -I.M.H.O- as a bridge between the mundane and supermundane /absolute teaching . Both aspects are complementary.


                      N: Dieter, you quote very good texts, worth to dwell upon these.------->

                      > D: 280. The idler who does not exert himself when he should, who > though young and strong is full of sloth, with a mind full of vain
                      > thoughts - such an indolent man does not find the path to wisdom.

                      -------
                      N: A reminder of the four right efforts, and these belong to the factors leading to enlightenment. We are already idlers now when
                      dwelling on stories instead of awareness of what presents itself now. There was a discussion here whether all texts refer to
                      satipa.t.thaana. Yes, it is always implied, even when not expressively mentioned.
                      -------

                      D: in a way that Satipatthana mentions the aspects of the path


                      281. Let a man be watchful of speech, well controlled in mind, and not commit evil in bodily action. Let him purify these three courses of action, and win the path made known by the Great Sage.



                      ---------
                      N: This is indriya sa"mvara siila, watchfulness or guarding the senses by way of mindfulness.
                      -------

                      D: respectively kamma patha

                      >
                      > D: 282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom > wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a
                      > man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase
                      >
                      -------
                      N: There are so many degrees of calm. Not necessarily absorption for everybody, there is no rule. When listening and considering there is
                      calm with the kusala citta.

                      D: agreed , though the perfection of samma samadhi is certainly of great help for further development.
                      My point of this Dhammapada quotation was especially the reference of the path training : i.e. sila 281, samadhi and panna 282,
                      and -as you mentioned -280 right effort (part of the samadhi sequence).

                      N:from B.Bodhi's transl:
                      "Whether or not you understand, Susima, first comes knowledge of the stability of the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana." (note 212)
                      Note 212 states: (the commentary):
                      Spk: Why is this said? For the purpose of showing the arising of knowledge thus even without concentration.
                      This is meant: "Susima, the path and fruit are not the issue of concentration (samadhinissanda), nor the advantage brought about by
                      concentration (samadhi-anisamsa), nor the outcome of concentration (samadhinipphatti). They are the issue of insight (vipassana), the
                      advantage brought about by insight, the outcome of insight. Therefore, whether you understand or not, first comes knowledge of the stability of
                      the Dhamma, afterwards knowledge of Nibbana.
                      Spk-pt: 'Even without concentration' (vina pi samadhim): even without previously established (concentration) that has acquired the
                      characteristic of serenity (samatha-lakkhanappattam); this is said referring to one who takes the vehicle of insight
                      (vipassanayanika)..."

                      JON's summary of Note 212: "Path knowledge is the outcome of insight (vipassana), not of the concentration that accompanies tranquillity (samatha).">
                      N: We have to remember that there are two kinds of jhaana (Commentary to the M.N.): jhaana that is absorption as a result of the
                      development of the kammathaana, and the lakkhana jhaana, the penetration of the three characteristics.
                      ------

                      D: there are a lot of possibilities of useful exchanges . Therefore the Mahaacunda Sutta , quoted by Sarah, would be a favorable quotation
                      for the introduction to the Dhamma Study Group.
                      It reminds us that those who are more familiar with meditation and those more with the theory should talk and learn from eachother.
                      Emphases on 'more ' because in many if not most cases there will be an overlapping.
                      This however will only work with mutual respect if supported by canonical sources ..( keeping advises like the sutta 'Carpenter's tool' in mind)


                      >
                      > D:Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual > inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in
                      > the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a > gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression,
                      > with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
                      >
                      -------
                      N: A good reminder that the development of satipa.t.thaana is very gradual, a long way, a long stretch.
                      ---------

                      D: yes, as embedded within the training of sila, samadhi and panna .. if I recall correctly, even in the Maha Paranibbana Sutta , the Buddha stressed this training half a dozen times

                      > D: - Ud 5.5
                      >
                      > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. > Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual
                      > action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis > after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice? There is
                      > the case where, when conviction has arisen, one visits [a > teacher].Having visited, one grows close. Having grown close, one
                      > lends ear. Having lent ear, one hears the Dhamma. Having heard the > Dhamma, one remembers it. Remembering, one penetrates the meaning
                      > of the teachings. Penetrating the meaning, one comes to an > agreement through pondering the teachings. There being an agreement
                      > through pondering the teachings, desire arises. When desire has > arisen, one is willing. When one is willing, one contemplates.
                      > Having contemplated, one makes an exertion. Having made an > exertion, one realizes with the body the ultimate truth and, having
                      > penetrated it with discernment, sees it.
                      >
                      -------
                      N: Here listening is emphasized. desire: kusala chanda. Exertion: the four right efforts. It is the effort of the eightfold Path together
                      with right understanding.

                      D: agreed , chanda provides the motivation needed for right effort , wholesome if accompanied by ( a growing ) right understanding, of which listening to / reading of the Dhamma is basically..


                      with Metta Dieter





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • sarah
                      Dear Dieter, ... ... S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 7, 2013
                        Dear Dieter,

                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

                        > S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used.
                        > ...
                        > D: the question was why these individuals are described > by Abhidhamma, the teaching of absolute/higher truth , although 'these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas '.
                        ...
                        S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the time, when they heard descriptions about different individuals, there was no doubt that what was being described were various elements, various khandhas, no atta at all.
                        ...
                        > As the Elders considered it necessary to copy (this personal) part of the Sutta Pitaka to the Abh.basket , then I have difficulities to understand
                        > your floccinaucinihilipilification of conventional or mundane truth/understanding
                        ...
                        S: That's a new word for me! As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised.
                        ...
                        ...
                        > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?
                        >
                        > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta :
                        ...
                        S: You give many quotes, but I don't see any reference to "the samadhi sequence" or any suggestion of the path factors arising in sequences or steps.
                        ...
                        > (D: Learning from eachother... isn't that the core of Mahaacunda Sutta?)
                        > ...
                        > S: Praising what is 'right' and learning what is praiseworthy. While I agree with you that disagreements should be courteous and respectful, this doesn't mean there should be compromise over what is taught by the Buddha.
                        >
                        >
                        > D: you are right : no compromise what is taught by the Budhha but having very well in mind the ways of teaching ..
                        > S:N. 36/19 (extract)
                        > "The Blessed One said: "Ananda, Udayi's way of presentation, with which Carpenter Fivetools disagreed, was correct, indeed. But also Carpenter Fivetool's way of presentation, with which Udayi disagreed, was correct. In one way of presentation I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of presentation I have spoken of three, of six, of eighteen, of thirty-six, and of one hundred and eight kinds of feelings.[1] So the Dhamma has been shown by me in different ways of presentation.
                        ...
                        S: Yes, "different ways of presentation", but only one path.
                        ...
                        > Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who do not agree with, do not consent to, and do not accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will quarrel, and get into arguments and disputes, hurting each other with sharp words."Regarding the Dhamma thus shown by me in different ways, if there are those who agree with, consent to, and accept what is rightly said and rightly spoken, it may be expected of them that they will live in concord and amity, without dispute, like milk (that easily mixes) with water, looking at each other with friendly eyes."
                        ...
                        S: Good quote and sutta. Thank you for sharing it and for your detailed post.

                        Metta

                        Sarah
                        =====
                      • Dieter Moeller
                        Dear Sarah, ... ... S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 9, 2013
                          Dear Sarah,

                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

                          > S: Just like in the suttas, the terms people or puggala are used, but the text makes it very clear that these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas. When there is understanding about such realities, there is no confusion whatever language is used.
                          > ...
                          > D: the question was why these individuals are described > by Abhidhamma, the teaching of absolute/higher truth , although 'these are just conventional ways of describing paramattha dhammas, realities - cittas, cetasikas and rupas '.
                          ...
                          S: Why not? The Buddha and his disciples used whatever language was most appropriate for the listeners. For those wise disciples at the time, when they heard descriptions about different individuals, there was no doubt that what was being described were various elements, various khandhas, no atta at all.
                          ...
                          D:> As the Elders considered it necessary to copy (this personal) part of the Sutta Pitaka to the Abh.basket , then I have difficulities to understand
                          > your floccinaucinihilipilification of conventional or mundane truth/understanding
                          ...
                          S: That's a new word for me!

                          D: I stumbled upon the word in the dictionary ..amusing origin , I wonder about the pronounciation ;-)

                          S:As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised.

                          D: I can't recall such statement ....wondering whether you would agree to that the 4 Noble Truths cannot deeply penetrated without understanding why ' the five clinging-aggregates (in other words citta,cetasikha and rupa attachment) are, in short, suffering' ?.



                          ...
                          > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?
                          >
                          > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta :
                          ...
                          S: You give many quotes, but I don't see any reference to "the samadhi sequence" or any suggestion of the path factors arising in sequences or steps.

                          D: I assumed you would read the Culavedalla Sutta:

                          'Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated."
                          "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"

                          "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."



                          example Dhammapada:

                          281. Let a man be watchful of speech, well controlled in mind, and not commit evil in bodily action. Let him purify these three courses of action, and win the path made known by the Great Sage.

                          282. Wisdom springs from meditation; without meditation wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself that his wisdom may increase

                          i.e. 281: sila . 282: samadhi and panna

                          as mentioned the Buddha spoke in numerous suttas of the path training :sila, samadhi, panna.





                          S:Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?



                          D:I did not say that the path factors arising in sequences .. but - as it has been stated - that the training in virtue provides the support for the training of the samadhi part , which gives support for the panna part





                          What is wrong with calling the gradual training 'steps' ? quoting again:

                          Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.

                          - Ud 5.5

                          Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70



                          with Metta Dieter




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • sarah
                          Dear Dieter, ... .... S: Yes, suffering because they are impermanent. This can only be known by understanding all kinds of namas and rupas as they are when
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 17, 2013
                            Dear Dieter,

                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

                            > S:As discussed many times, we all use and rely on conventional truth, sammutti sacca, all day long. It's not a matter of the language, but the understanding of the paramattha dhammas that is important. Without an understanding of such dhammas now, the 4 Noble Truths can never be realised.
                            >
                            > D: I can't recall such statement ....wondering whether you would agree to that the 4 Noble Truths cannot deeply penetrated without understanding why ' the five clinging-aggregates (in other words citta,cetasikha and rupa attachment) are, in short, suffering' ?.
                            ....
                            S: Yes, suffering because they are impermanent. This can only be known by understanding all kinds of namas and rupas as they are when they appear.

                            As Htoo explained very clearly in #131749 there must be sacca nana of the 4NT (very firm intellectual right understanding, followed by kicca nana, (the development of satipatthana), direct right understanding, followed by kata nana (realisation of the Truths).
                            ...
                            > ...
                            > > S:What do you mean by "the samadhi sequence"? Are you suggesting path factors arise in sequence or steps? I thought such an idea of sequence/steps has been discussed and shown to be erroneous before. What is Noble Path training - now?
                            > >
                            > > D: quoting from the Culavedalla Sutta :

                            > D: I assumed you would read the Culavedalla Sutta:

                            > 'Is the noble eightfold path fabricated or unfabricated?" "The noble eightfold path is fabricated."
                            > "And are the three aggregates [of virtue, concentration, & discernment] included under the noble eightfold path, lady, or is the noble eightfold path included under the three aggregates?"
                            ...
                            S: No suggestion of "samadhi sequence" here or elsewhere in the quotes you gave.
                            >
                            > "The three aggregates are not included under the noble eightfold path, friend Visakha, but the noble eightfold path is included under the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, & right livelihood come under the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, & right concentration come under the aggregate of concentration. Right view & right resolve come under the aggregate of discernment."
                            ...
                            S: These are the various factors that arise together with right understanding. There cannot be the path factors included under sila or samadhi without right understanding as forerunner.
                            ...
                            >

                            > D:I did not say that the path factors arising in sequences .. but - as it has been stated - that the training in virtue provides the support for the training of the samadhi part , which gives support for the panna part
                            ...
                            S: If we are talking about the path, it is panna which is the leader.
                            ...
                            > What is wrong with calling the gradual training 'steps' ? quoting again:
                            >
                            > Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
                            >
                            > - Ud 5.5
                            >
                            > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70
                            ...
                            S: This is talking about the gradual path, not about which path factors arise first. The gradual training begins with right understanding now.

                            Metta

                            Sarah
                            =====
                          • Nina van Gorkom
                            Dear Sarah, Dieter, Jagkrit, I am glad about the text Jagkrit referred to. How gradual it is. And good: it begins with right understanding now, that is, of the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 25, 2013
                              Dear Sarah, Dieter, Jagkrit,
                              I am glad about the text Jagkrit referred to. How gradual it is. And good: it begins with right understanding now, that is, of the present reality. What else there is?
                              Nina.
                              Op 17 jul 2013, om 10:36 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven:

                              > Just as the ocean has a gradual shelf, a gradual slope, a gradual inclination, with a sudden drop-off only after a long stretch, in the same way this Doctrine and Discipline (dhamma-vinaya) has a gradual training, a gradual performance, a gradual progression, with a penetration to gnosis only after a long stretch.
                              > >
                              > > - Ud 5.5
                              > >
                              > > Monks, I do not say that the attainment of gnosis is all at once. Rather, the attainment of gnosis is after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice. And how is there the attainment of gnosis after gradual training, gradual action, gradual practice?.. MN 70
                              > ...
                              > S: This is talking about the gradual path, not about which path factors arise first. The gradual training begins with right understanding now.



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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