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Re: [dsg] Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, No 34

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  • Dieter Moeller
    Dear Nina, Wellknown is especially the address to householders : A.N. 5.176 PTS: A iii 206 ,... Householder, you have provided the community ... N: But it
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 16, 2013
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      Dear Nina,


      Wellknown is especially the address to householders : A.N. 5.176 > PTS: A iii 206 ,... "Householder, you have provided the community
      > of monks with robes, alms food, lodgings, & medicinal requisites > for the sick, but you shouldn't rest content with the thought, 'We
      > have provided the community of monks with robes, alms food, > lodgings, & medicinal requisites for the sick.' So you should train
      > yourself, 'Let's periodically enter & remain in seclusion & > rapture.' That's how you should train yourself."
      >
      --------
      N: But it is not a rule for everybody, it depends on accumulated inclinations. Thus, no self who thinks, I must first be calm before
      understanding can be developed. Then there is lobha creeping in again.

      D: I agree , not a rule for everybody but for those with relatively less dust in their eyes.Those know that within an environment of strong sensations
      the mind will be unable "to discern clearly the truth. They are: sensuous desire (kamacchanda),ill-will (vyapada),sloth and torpor (thina-middha),restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), and skeptical doubt (vicikiccha).In the beautiful similes in A.V.193, sensuous desire is compared with water mixed with manifold colours, ill-will with boiling water, sloth and torpor with water covered by moss, restlessness and scruples with agitated water whipped by the wind, skeptical doubt with turbid and muddy water. Just as in such water one cannot perceive one's own reflection, so in the presence of these 5 mental hindrances, one cannot clearly discern one's own benefit, nor that of others, nor that of both."
      (Buddh. Dict. nivarana)

      I think it is an error to suspect that any thought is a failure due to a mistaken self. Chanda comes into my mind ..



      N: In your other post you said also: <please note tranquillity .. not really the dominant state of our daily life , is it?
      Little by little ... a peaceful state of mind a chance for development of knowledge and insight ..>
      No rule and there should not be a self who is wishing for calm or trying to have it.

      D: I think little by little (from time to time) one is trying to avoid the hectic environment in favor of a quit(er) place to allow contemplation .
      I avoid to say meditation as it seems that the term triggers opposition from some members.. correct is samadhi , as a collective for
      the Noble Path elements 6,7 and 8.


      N: By the way, in sutta translations I notice that right thought, sammaa vayaama is often translated as right intention. Intention is cetanaa.
      But it is not a factor of the eightfold Path.
      ------



      D: to be considered:

      "1.Right view or right understanding (samma-ditthi) is the understanding of the 4 Noble Truths about the universality of suffering (unsatisfactoriness), of its origin, its cessation, and the path leading to that cessation. - See the Discourse on 'Right Understanding' (M. 9, tr. and Com. in 'R. Und.').

      2.Right thought (samma-sankappa): thoughts free from sensuous desire, from ill-will, and cruelty." (Buddh.Dict.)

      Please compare with kamma- patha :3 mental actions: covetousness, ill-will, evil views.
      The sila of wholesome (mental) action is an issue of intention, isn't it?
      Hence if the condition of understanding/view is right, there will be right thought..and this is matter of the 3fold Noble Path training 'Sila, Samadhi, Panna.

      N: Your sutta quote: "Lord, when a disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, there are five possibilities that do
      not exist at that time: The pain & distress dependent on sensuality do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on sensuality
      do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pleasure & joy dependent on
      what is unskillful do not exist at that time. The pain & distress dependent on what is skillful do not exist at that time. When a
      disciple of the noble ones enters & remains in seclusion & rapture, these five possibilities do not exist at that time."
      -----
      N: Again, if someone is able to cultivate jhaana it is right and no misunderstandings at the time of the Buddha. But nowadays?
      ------

      D: as you said: little by little ..and not expecting the perfection of the first Jhana. The point of tranquility or peace of mind
      is a process of development .. with right effort as a base as well for sati as for jhana.
      We certainly agree that householders have hardly the same chance of a forest monk to cultivate jhana .. but - to repeat- 'little by little '

      with Metta Dieter


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