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[dsg] Re: rebirth and control

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  • truth_aerator
    Hello Sukin, all, ... Sure, it is silabataparamasa. I hope that you understand the principle. ... It is possible to misapply a good thing such as reading the
    Message 1 of 17 , Jun 14, 2013
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      Hello Sukin, all,


      > What about sun worshiping, do these apply to it?

      Sure, it is silabataparamasa. I hope that you understand the principle.



      >So sun worship, Sufi dancing, bathing in the Ganges, prostrating in >the direction of Mecca, singing songs of love to God, sitting in a >quiet place at 5 in the morning to read the suttas believing that >panna is more likely to arise then, these are not the stuff of rite >and rituals because the Visuddhimagga does not list them?
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


      It is possible to misapply a good thing such as reading the suttas.



      >Meditation, doing it with the intention to "stop becoming" is rooted >in attachment and self-view...
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>

      Why? Maybe for you it is so, but don't guess everyone else's motivation.


      >Both fail to understand that the Noble Eightfold Path is a >conditioned citta with accompanying mental factors which arises by >conditions beyond control regardless of the conventional activity.
      >>>>>>>>>>>

      On so many different occasions I, and others have said that: meditation teachers also teach that citta is conditioned. This is the point of practice! If there was control, practice would be useless. One could just control the citta to always be without lobha/dosa/moha.

      But one can't.


      >So you are saying that since an Anagami still has lobha, why we need >to be concerned about it.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      That is very partial understanding. What I am saying is that you can't simply use "don't meditate because you still have lobha and it ruins the path..."


      >Well, one, there can't be lobha for Nibbana.

      Right. I've nowhere stated that lobha is the cause of Nibbana. It isn't.

      >So rather than take the Anagami's still existing lobha as
      >excuse to follow a "practice" led by your own lobha , have confidence >in the Noble Eightfold Path and know that lobha is NOT the way.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>

      Lobha is not the way. But jhanas as part of samma-samadhi (8th factor) and satipatthana (called vipassana today) as 7th factor, along with all the other factors, is the way.


      >Meditation is not just a conventional word, it is a conventional
      >activity that reflect wrong view. Labeling it samatha, vipassana,
      >satipatthana does not change this fact.
      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

      What you are describing is not what suttas teach. They teach to meditate, while you use strawman arguments all the time to make the suttas say what they do not say, and I find this to be too bad.

      I don't feel like continuing this discussion where you twist the words to make them mean what they don't mean and repeatedly use strawman fallacy.


      Alex
    • Sukinder
      Hi Alex, ... In your last reply this was what you said: Quote: You think that only the examples mentioned in the Visuddhimagga ... In principle, yes.
      Message 2 of 17 , Jun 16, 2013
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        Hi Alex,


        > > What about sun worshiping, do these apply to it?
        >
        > Sure, it is silabataparamasa. I hope that you understand the principle.
        >


        In your last reply this was what you said:

        Quote:
        ">You think that only the examples mentioned in the Visuddhimagga
        >constitute rites and rituals?
        >>>>>>>>>

        In principle, yes." <end quote>

        So what are you really trying to tell me? Please elaborate.

        ===
        >
        > >So sun worship, Sufi dancing, bathing in the Ganges, prostrating in
        > >the direction of Mecca, singing songs of love to God, sitting in a
        > >quiet place at 5 in the morning to read the suttas believing that
        > >panna is more likely to arise then, these are not the stuff of rite
        > >and rituals because the Visuddhimagga does not list them?
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > It is possible to misapply a good thing such as reading the suttas.
        >


        If you would give a straight response, it would make the discussion easier.

        ==-
        >
        > >Meditation, doing it with the intention to "stop becoming" is rooted
        > >in attachment and self-view...
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > Why? Maybe for you it is so, but don't guess everyone else's motivation.
        >


        I've expressed my views many times before, but I don't mind repeating

        Meditation as in the idea of sitting down (or standing up, or lying
        down, or walking) with the intention to note / observe a chosen object
        or any and all objects experienced through the five senses and the mind,
        is not something that panna would conceive of. The reason being that
        panna when arisen knows a reality and its nature as conditioned and
        anatta, hence no control. Not only the object of panna is conditioned
        and anatta, but the panna itself is conditioned and anatta. The first
        time that understanding arises is after one has heard the Dhamma, which
        must therefore be at the level of pariyatti, and known to arise without
        any intention to have it. Also one begins to know the difference between
        thinking and understanding and reality vs. concept.

        This leads to seeing importance in understanding the present moment
        reality while recognizing thought proliferation in terms of not only the
        past and future, but the present as well. In other words, one sign of
        being on the right Path is increased confidence that the "present moment
        reality" is the only object for the development of understanding. This
        if I remember correctly, is illustrated in the Buddha's first discourse,
        the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta in the concept of Saccannana, Kiccannana
        and Katannana.

        Therefore if one thinks in terms of another time, place and activity for
        the development of understanding, this reflects lack of confidence that
        "now" is the only time for understanding. When this is made into a
        belief about "practice", it must therefore be due to wrong view having a
        wrong idea about practice.

        So do I need to read people's mind or ask them about it to know that
        what they do is wrong practice conditioned by wrong view?

        ===
        >
        >
        > >Both fail to understand that the Noble Eightfold Path is a
        > >conditioned citta with accompanying mental factors which arises by
        > >conditions beyond control regardless of the conventional activity.
        > >>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > On so many different occasions I, and others have said that:
        > meditation teachers also teach that citta is conditioned. This is the
        > point of practice! If there was control, practice would be useless.
        > One could just control the citta to always be without lobha/dosa/moha.
        >
        > But one can't.
        >


        Yes, you've said that before. But really it makes no difference even if
        you had all the ideas expressed in the Tipitaka in your head. Your
        practice goes against the understanding regarding the nature of the
        present moment reality, therefore what you do is a case of using
        concepts taught by the Buddha to support wrong practice. Now is now, not
        the "now" of another time, place and posture.

        ===
        >
        > >So you are saying that since an Anagami still has lobha, why we need
        > >to be concerned about it.
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > That is very partial understanding. What I am saying is that you can't
        > simply use "don't meditate because you still have lobha and it ruins
        > the path..."
        >


        That is not what I am saying. What I say is that the Buddha taught about
        understanding the reality "now" and not doing something in particular in
        order that this happens. I am not saying that because we still have
        lobha, we should therefore not practice meditation. I am saying that the
        concept of meditation is the projection of lobha and wrong view.

        ===
        >
        > >Well, one, there can't be lobha for Nibbana.
        >
        > Right. I've nowhere stated that lobha is the cause of Nibbana. It isn't.
        >


        But this is what you said in your last response:

        Quote:
        "If I understand correctly, then at maggaphala moment there is no lobha.
        But lobha (for rupa/arupa, Nibbana) can be present even for Anagamin. "

        ===
        >
        > >So rather than take the Anagami's still existing lobha as
        > >excuse to follow a "practice" led by your own lobha , have confidence
        > >in the Noble Eightfold Path and know that lobha is NOT the way.
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > Lobha is not the way. But jhanas as part of samma-samadhi (8th factor)
        > and satipatthana (called vipassana today) as 7th factor, along with
        > all the other factors, is the way.
        >


        OK, so lobha is not the way.

        ===
        >
        > >Meditation is not just a conventional word, it is a conventional
        > >activity that reflect wrong view. Labeling it samatha, vipassana,
        > >satipatthana does not change this fact.
        > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
        >
        > What you are describing is not what suttas teach. They teach to
        > meditate, while you use strawman arguments all the time to make the
        > suttas say what they do not say, and I find this to be too bad.
        >
        > I don't feel like continuing this discussion where you twist the words
        > to make them mean what they don't mean and repeatedly use strawman
        > fallacy.
        >


        You don't wish to discuss is fine. But do point out to me if you feel
        like it, how my explanation above, regarding my objection towards
        meditation, is using a straw man.


        Metta,

        Sukin





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • truth_aerator
        Hello Sukin, all, ... The from the POV of suttas and VsM, what is called meditation today is not what is defined as rites & rituals. ... It is an idea taken
        Message 3 of 17 , Jun 16, 2013
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          Hello Sukin, all,

          >Suk:So what are you really trying to tell me? Please elaborate.
          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

          The from the POV of suttas and VsM, what is called meditation today is not what is defined as rites & rituals.


          >Suk: Meditation as in the idea...
          >>>>>>>>>>

          It is an idea taken from suttas and commentaries.

          You and others bring forth faulty points that was never an issue in the suttas and commentaries.

          >Suk: This leads to seeing importance in understanding the present ?>moment
          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

          That is what meditation is about.

          >Suk: Therefore if one thinks in terms of another time, place and >activity for the development of understanding, this reflects lack of >confidence that "now" is the only time for understanding.
          >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

          And why can't one meditate now?

          .............
          Alex
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