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Re: [dsg] Re: Practice According to the Dhamma (Pa.tipatti)

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  • Sukinder
    Hi Alex, ... How to do it or what it is? And why jump to the idea of practice? Is not the Eightfold Path the fourth of the Four Noble Truths and therefore it
    Message 1 of 483 , May 1, 2013
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      Hi Alex,


      > >S:Why does one listen to the Buddha's teachings?
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > To know how to practice.
      >

      How to do it or what it is? And why jump to the idea of practice? Is not
      the Eightfold Path the fourth of the Four Noble Truths and therefore it
      is imperative that you hear about the other three also?


      > >Is it not to understand something one otherwise would never come to
      > >know by oneself or from any other teacher?
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > This understanding is useless unless one puts it to use.
      >

      The idea of "putting into use" may be due exactly to not understanding
      what the Buddha taught. Therefore start again, because even if there is
      right understanding, one must begin again and again rather than the idea
      of application or of having direct experience.


      > One can know that smoking is bad, yet still smokes. Why? Due to
      > craving. And here is the difficulty lies. To resist the craving.
      >

      To resist craving with craving, one is not better than the other. Worse
      is to resist it with self-view.


      > >Does this not therefore make a difference in one's outlook?
      >
      > Very little after a while.
      >

      A difference in terms of accumulated understanding, and no worry about
      how much and when, dhammas works their way. Craving for direct
      understanding on the other hand, and further to be driven to wrong
      practices, this is not the right cause for the result aimed at.


      > >And one keeps on listening because one sees the value of such
      > >understanding.
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > Its almost useless unless one puts it into a practice.
      > Knowing to swim and swimming are different.
      >

      Yes intellectual understanding is not direct understanding. However one
      leads to the other by conditions and not by a self who wishes it.
      Intellectual understanding knows that it is intellectual understanding
      and therefore far from being a problem, is sign of being on the right
      track. What is bad is wrong practice mistaken for right, where no direct
      understanding is ever involved, but wrong view makes appear otherwise.


      > >The experience of ultimate realities? Well, we all experience
      > >ultimate realities and even refer to them all day!
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > This is irrelevant to the path. Appropriate attention is to
      > contemplate 4NT rather than existence/non-existence. See MN2
      >

      Four Noble Truths are not ultimate realities that exist?


      > > > Of course, over there --we are told by Abhidhammikas who are not
      > > > Arahants-- there are no control, no you, no me, no discussion, no
      > > > meditation, no learning, no practice, no Dhamma -- just the
      > >ultimate realities alone.
      > >>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > That is not what suttas or Abhidhamma teaches.
      >

      Of the Four Noble Truths, which one refers to persons? As to practice,
      it is the Fourth Noble Truth, but this is a particular set of cetasikas
      accompanying the citta, not a person who practices.


      > >Is seeing now "me"?
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > Wrong reflection. See MN#2.
      >

      MN2 is about someone whose reference point is "I". in the above the
      reference point is "seeing", a dhamma.


      > >...this can be understood too, now, can it not?
      >
      > Better is to reflect on 4NT. See MN2
      >

      Seeing consciousness is Dukkha, the First Noble Truth.


      > >Are you able to see an ultimate reality arising and passing away
      > >right now?
      > >>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > A better thing to see is arising and passing away of dukkha. MN2.
      >

      If you don't understand seeing consciousness as a dhamma, there is no
      way that you will ever understand it as Dukkha.


      > >One question here, which part of the Buddha's teachings should a
      > >beginner go by and why?
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > All relevant teaching minus improper speculative theories.
      >


      So you think that the Dhamma contains speculative theories? Anyway,
      please give a more precise answer as to which part of the teachings a
      beginner should go by.


      > >Some people love stories about "self" moving in time, doing and
      > >achieving this and that.
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > Talking that "self doesn't exist... Thus no control..." is exactly the
      > same kind of speculative story about self, that doesn't (supposedly)
      > exist.
      >

      Talking about "self" not existing but not understanding that there only
      dhammas is speculative. However when self is denied while asserting that
      there are only dhammas "now" to be known, this is pointing to the First
      Noble Truth.


      Metta,

      Sukin


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jonoabb
      Hi Rob E RE: Hi Jon. RE: I will get into the next part about the Satipatthana sutta later, as I need to look at it to continue the discussion. J: Glad to
      Message 483 of 483 , Oct 1, 2013
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        Hi Rob E

         

        RE: Hi Jon. 


        > RE: I will get into the next part about the Satipatthana sutta later, as I need to look at it to continue the discussion.


        > J:  Glad to hear you'll be checking out the text of the sutta for a change!! :-))


        RE:

        :-)  I appreciate what I desperately hope is your humor here, and if so, is very funny. 


        I will get back to you with the usual sutta quotes as soon as I can.  :-)


        Very very funny, Jon.   ; - /


        Best,

        Rob  E.


        - - - - - - - - - -


        J:  You may have forgotten in the confusion over the new format that you have already come back with a quote from the Satipatthana Sutta.  My reply to your message can be found here:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dhammastudygroup/conversations/messages/133161


        Jon

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