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Re: The Cycle of Birth and Death, no 1.

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  • Ken H
    Hi Thomas, ... ... they (the first noble truth) are called samsara. ...The conditioned dhammas described by the Buddha are the ultimately real samsara.
    Message 1 of 64 , Apr 11, 2013
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      Hi Thomas,

      ------
      >>KH:
      " ... they (the first noble truth) are called samsara."
      " ...The conditioned dhammas described by the Buddha are the ultimately real samsara." >>

      > T: Could you show me textual evidence?
      --------

      KH: Textual evidence is not my strong point :-) but no amount of it could settle this matter.

      Your initial question assumed that the texts contained two teachings: one based on the four noble truths and the other based on Hinduism.

      But that can't be right, can it? The Buddha taught only the first of those two. When the Buddha described samsara he was not teaching the Hindu understanding of it; he was teaching dukkha and the cause of dukkha. Everything else he described was either nibbana or the path leading to nibbana.

      Ken H
    • Tep Sastri
      Hi Saraha, Brother Han - ... T: It was Brother Han, Sarah, not I, who inserted the Pali text. ... ...... T: Adhi-siila-sikkha is deveoped by Sekha puggalas on
      Message 64 of 64 , May 21, 2013
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        Hi Saraha, Brother Han -

        > Sarah:
        > Dear Tep & Tadao,
        >
        > Thank you for sharing the sutta and inserting the Pali:
        >

        T: It was Brother Han, Sarah, not I, who inserted the Pali text.

        > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@> wrote:
        >
        > > Once again, my Good Brother Tep has brought up a very useful sutta.
        > > Saadhu! Saadhu! Saadhu!
        > > I inserted Paa.li text in support of his efforts.
        > >  
        > > AN 4.1 Anubuddha Sutta: Understanding
        > >  
        > <...>
        ... ...
        > > (1) "It's because of not understanding and not penetrating noble virtue that we have wandered and transmigrated on such a long, long time, you and I.
        > ...
        > S: This is just the point I was making. It is "noble" virtue that is being referred to. This is adhi-siila, (higher siila) that can only develop and become noble with the development of right understanding and associated path factors.
        >
        > Without the development of satipatthana, it will never be noble virtue.
        >
        ......

        T: Adhi-siila-sikkha is deveoped by Sekha puggalas on the Path (magga). I agree with you that noble Sila is developed along with lokuttara samma-ditthi and the path factors samma-vayama plus samma-sati [See MN 117].
        But what we discussed earlier in the DSG message #130782 (5/20/2013) is Patimokha siila and indriya-samvara:
        The slightest faults in the Vinaya must be understood by all good monks, new or experienced monks, otherwise they cannot succeed. But that "understanding" is at the puthujjana level before satipatthana and panna. The Pali text of this Sutta (Anguttara Nikaya, catukkanipata caravaggo, Siilasuttam found at the metta.lk Web site) shows that Sila here is Patimokha Rules that every monk must follow. Once he is "virtuous" --having passed the Patimokha tests-- satipatthana in the four body postures is the next thing right after "what further has he to do?".

        Be well,
        Tep
        ===
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