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Re: Right Supports for Right Understanding

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  • Robert E
    Hi Tep. ... I like this explanation as well, and it accords with my limited understanding that the mental factors co-dependently support each other, otherwise
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 11, 2013
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      Hi Tep.

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Nina and Sarah, - [due to a typo please ignore the message that was posted just before this]
      >
      > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows:
      > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness.
      >
      > The above statement applies both before and after Stream-entry.
      > ................
      >
      > I like this explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
      >
      > "The commentators illustrate the interdependence of the three factors within the concentration group with a simple simile. Three boys go to a park to play. While walking along they see a tree with flowering tops and decide they want to gather the flowers. But the flowers are beyond the reach even of the tallest boy. Then one friend bends down and offers his back. The tall boy climbs up, but still hesitates to reach for the flowers from fear of falling. So the third boy comes over and offers his shoulder for support. The first boy, standing on the back of the second boy, then leans on the shoulder of the third boy, reaches up, and gathers the flowers."
      > "In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify the mind concentration needs support: the energy provided by right effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives
      > this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix the mind firmly on its object."
      > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html

      I like this explanation as well, and it accords with my limited understanding that the mental factors co-dependently support each other, otherwise it is very difficult for one or the other to function fully. I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time, as, to my reading, appears to be suggested in the "balanced" sequence of the anapanasati sutta, where there are "steps" that support samatha, steps that support sati, and finally deeper instances of expanded sati or deeper samatha into jhana. Eventually this sequence leads to the development of the full set of enlightenment factors, with some deference paid to the setting aside or suppression/eradication of the defilements, which are also a distraction and interference to right concentration.

      There is another sutta - which I also don't have at hand - which discusses the application of satipatthana and development of insight within the jhana states. This has been discussed several times since I've been at dsg, the idea being that the subtle state of the jhana becomes the object of awareness. Some argue that one must exit the jhana in order to treat it as an object of mindfulness in which case it is being encountered as a nimitta, after-image or after-experience of the jhana; but it seems to me that as the Buddha discusses the passage from the more external/superficial jhana to the next deeper one, and so on, that this sequence might not take place if one were to exit each jhana and then go back into it. The development seems to take place by using each jhana as the launching-pad for the next more concentrated one. And the Buddha was seen to demonstrate this sequence a number of times, including on the occasion of his parinibbana, where he made a point of demonstrating the sequence into the high formless jhanas and then back to the 4th jhana from which he exited this life.

      To go through the jhanas like that and then backtrack to the 4th with such precision is clearly demonstration of the great skill of the arahant/Buddha, and may come with the label "don't try this at home," but it does show how mindful awareness can skillfully go from one concentrated state to another.

      In any case, I think that looking at the way the major mental enlightenment factors develop together and support each other is a vital study. Intellectual "right understanding" without active mindfulness and right concentration in the moment is empty, and mere awareness of phenomena without understanding is equally superficial, though it may have developmental value. When understanding, effort, energy, awareness and concentration come together skillfully, that is a pretty good situation for higher development.

      Best,
      Rob E.

      = = = = = = = = = =
    • Tep Sastri
      Hi Rob E., - Your understanding of the Dhamma is not limited at all, in my sincere opinion (IMSO). Thank you very much for sharing the excellent thought that
      Message 2 of 23 , Apr 11, 2013
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        Hi Rob E., -

        Your understanding of the Dhamma is not limited at all, in my sincere opinion (IMSO). Thank you very much for sharing the excellent thought that sums up the relevant points about concentration as the supporting factor for discernment.

        [Rob E.:]
        1. The mental factors co-dependently support each other, otherwise it is very difficult for one or the other to function fully: there are "steps" that support samatha, steps that support sati, and finally deeper instances of expanded sati or deeper samatha into jhana. Eventually this sequence leads to the development of the full set of enlightenment factorswith some deference paid to the setting aside or suppression/eradication of the defilements, which are also a distraction and interference to right concentration.
        2. The subtle state of the jhana becomes the object of awareness as the meditator exits a jhana to the next deeper one, i.e., using each jhana as the launching-pad for the next more concentrated one. The Buddha was seen to demonstrate this sequence a number of times, including on the occasion of his Parinibbana.
        3. Looking at the way the major mental enlightenment factors develop together and support each other is a vital study. Intellectual "right understanding" without active mindfulness and right concentration in the moment is empty, and mere awareness of phenomena without understanding is equally superficial, though it may have developmental value. When understanding, effort, energy, awareness and concentration come together skillfully, that is a pretty good situation for higher development.
        ------------

        Congratulations for the spotless understanding of what "higher development" actually means in the majority of the Suttas. However, someone may argue that what you said is the samatha-vipassana method, and that higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana.

        Truly,

        Tep
        ===

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Tep.
        >
        > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Nina and Sarah, - [due to a typo please ignore the message that was posted just before this]
        > >
        > > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows:
        > > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness.
        > >
        > > The above statement applies both before and after Stream-entry.
        > > ................
        > >
        > > I like this explanation by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
        > >
        > > "The commentators illustrate the interdependence of the three factors within the concentration group with a simple simile. Three boys go to a park to play. While walking along they see a tree with flowering tops and decide they want to gather the flowers. But the flowers are beyond the reach even of the tallest boy. Then one friend bends down and offers his back. The tall boy climbs up, but still hesitates to reach for the flowers from fear of falling. So the third boy comes over and offers his shoulder for support. The first boy, standing on the back of the second boy, then leans on the shoulder of the third boy, reaches up, and gathers the flowers."
        > > "In this simile the tall boy who picks the flowers represents concentration with its function of unifying the mind. But to unify the mind concentration needs support: the energy provided by right effort, which is like the boy who offers his back. It also requires the stabilizing awareness provided by mindfulness, which is like the boy who offers his shoulder. When right concentration receives
        > > this support, then empowered by right effort and balanced by right mindfulness it can draw in the scattered strands of thought and fix the mind firmly on its object."
        > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html
        >
        > I like this explanation as well, and it accords with my limited understanding that the mental factors co-dependently support each other, otherwise it is very difficult for one or the other to function fully. I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time, as, to my reading, appears to be suggested in the "balanced" sequence of the anapanasati sutta, where there are "steps" that support samatha, steps that support sati, and finally deeper instances of expanded sati or deeper samatha into jhana. Eventually this sequence leads to the development of the full set of enlightenment factors, with some deference paid to the setting aside or suppression/eradication of the defilements, which are also a distraction and interference to right concentration.
        >
        > There is another sutta - which I also don't have at hand - which discusses the application of satipatthana and development of insight within the jhana states. This has been discussed several times since I've been at dsg, the idea being that the subtle state of the jhana becomes the object of awareness. Some argue that one must exit the jhana in order to treat it as an object of mindfulness in which case it is being encountered as a nimitta, after-image or after-experience of the jhana; but it seems to me that as the Buddha discusses the passage from the more external/superficial jhana to the next deeper one, and so on, that this sequence might not take place if one were to exit each jhana and then go back into it. The development seems to take place by using each jhana as the launching-pad for the next more concentrated one. And the Buddha was seen to demonstrate this sequence a number of times, including on the occasion of his parinibbana, where he made a point of demonstrating the sequence into the high formless jhanas and then back to the 4th jhana from which he exited this life.
        >
        > To go through the jhanas like that and then backtrack to the 4th with such precision is clearly demonstration of the great skill of the arahant/Buddha, and may come with the label "don't try this at home," but it does show how mindful awareness can skillfully go from one concentrated state to another.
        >
        > In any case, I think that looking at the way the major mental enlightenment factors develop together and support each other is a vital study. Intellectual "right understanding" without active mindfulness and right concentration in the moment is empty, and mere awareness of phenomena without understanding is equally superficial, though it may have developmental value. When understanding, effort, energy, awareness and concentration come together skillfully, that is a pretty good situation for higher development.
        >
        > Best,
        > Rob E.
        >
        > = = = = = = = = = =
        >
      • Robert E
        Hi Tep. ... Well I am very aware of the enormous amount of detail and specific understandings that I don t have. I will be a little more content if one day I
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 11, 2013
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          Hi Tep.

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Rob E., -
          >
          > Your understanding of the Dhamma is not limited at all, in my sincere opinion (IMSO).

          Well I am very aware of the enormous amount of detail and specific understandings that I don't have. I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries. While I am giving my "wish list" I would really like to someday take the time to read a number of commentaries on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...? :-) ]

          And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-)

          > Thank you very much for sharing the excellent thought that sums up the relevant points about concentration as the supporting factor for discernment.

          I appreciate your organization and summary of the points. I find it helpful to re-read them in that form!

          ...

          > Congratulations for the spotless understanding of what "higher development" actually means in the majority of the Suttas. However, someone may argue that what you said is the samatha-vipassana method, and that higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana.

          I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself.

          It seems to me that the Buddha mentions in a couple of suttas that one of superior faculties may develop vipassana directly and develop right concentration in the "momentary" form as they approach enlightenment, as those who advocate dry insight propose. I think there are a much larger number of suttas in which he proposes the path that includes development of jhana, either before or after a certain level of insight is developed.

          Although I am uncertain on this subject, it seems to me that the scriptures seem to indicate that only those of superior faculties, rare individuals, such as Bahiya, can attain full enlightenment without jhana at least of a certain level, but I could be wrong!

          Best,
          Rob E.

          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

          Ud 1.10 - Bahiya Sutta:
          "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."

          Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping. Then the Lord, having instructed Bahiya with this brief instruction, went away.

          ...

          "Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was a wise man. He practiced according to Dhamma and did not trouble me by disputing about Dhamma. Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth has attained final Nibbana."

          ...

          Where neither water nor yet earth
          Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
          There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
          There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.

          When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
          For himself through his own wisdom,
          Then he is freed from form and formless.
          Freed from pleasure and from pain.

          - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        • Tep Sastri
          Hi Rob E., - ... T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ( practice ) benefit you. ... T: I hope so
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 12, 2013
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            Hi Rob E., -

            What you have described as a future Dhamma-study plan is quite practical :

            >RE: I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries ... on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...?] And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-)

            T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you.
            .........

            > >T: ... someone may argue that ... higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana.

            >RE: I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself.

            T: I hope so too; but the question has been whether the easy path with no jhana really works to turn someone into at least a Sotapanna; jhana is required for sure for anagami-magga. The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha.

            Regards,
            Tep
            ===
            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Tep.
            >
            > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Rob E., -
            > >
            <snipped>

            > Best,
            > Rob E.
            >
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            >
            > Ud 1.10 - Bahiya Sutta:
            > "When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
            >
            > Now through this brief Dhamma teaching of the Lord the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was immediately freed from the taints without grasping. Then the Lord, having instructed Bahiya with this brief instruction, went away.
            >
            > ...
            >
            > "Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was a wise man. He practiced according to Dhamma and did not trouble me by disputing about Dhamma. Bhikkhus, Bahiya of the Bark-cloth has attained final Nibbana."
            >
            > ...
            >
            > Where neither water nor yet earth
            > Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
            > There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
            > There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.
            >
            > When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
            > For himself through his own wisdom,
            > Then he is freed from form and formless.
            > Freed from pleasure and from pain.
            >
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            >
          • Robert E
            Hi Tep. ... If I manage to put this plan into effect at some point, I will be happy to report back on what takes place. ... That is a good point. I guess we
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 13, 2013
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              Hi Tep.

              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Rob E., -
              >
              > What you have described as a future Dhamma-study plan is quite practical :
              >
              > >RE: I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries ... on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...?] And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-)
              >
              > T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you.
              > .........

              If I manage to put this plan into effect at some point, I will be happy to report back on what takes place.

              > > >T: ... someone may argue that ... higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana.
              >
              > >RE: I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself.
              >
              > T: I hope so too; but the question has been whether the easy path with no jhana really works to turn someone into at least a Sotapanna; jhana is required for sure for anagami-magga. The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha.

              That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer based only on this sutta.

              Best,
              Rob E.

              - - - - - - - - - - - -
            • tadaomiyamoto@ymail.com
              Dear Tep and Rob Studying of the scriptures is useful as long as one does not think that accumulating certain mounts and kinds of knowledge would induce more
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 14, 2013
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                Dear Tep and Rob

                Studying of the scriptures is useful as long as one does not think that accumulating certain mounts and kinds of knowledge would induce more sati and pannaa in one's daily life.

                The idea is based on attachment not on detachment.

                I think it depends on one's yoniso-manasikaara to regard what are beneficial and what
                are not for the development of sati/pannaa. But the idea of doing specific things to induce more sati/pannaa sounds very much motivated by self/attachment; hence it is not
                yonio-manasikaara (wise thinking) in its true sense.

                The point is that doing things without expectation is much much better than doing so with a full of expectation.

                Best wishes,

                tadao


                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Tep.
                >
                > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hi Rob E., -
                > >
                > > What you have described as a future Dhamma-study plan is quite practical :
                > >
                > > >RE: I will be a little more content if one day I have the time and focus to read the scriptures more thoroughly as well as commentaries ... on my favorite suttas - the anapanasati, satipatthana and kayagasati suttas - as well as study the organization of the originals more carefully [and perhaps put them into practice...?] And it wouldn't hurt to learn some Pali... :-)
                > >
                > > T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you.
                > > .........
                >
                > If I manage to put this plan into effect at some point, I will be happy to report back on what takes place.
                >
                > > > >T: ... someone may argue that ... higher development can also be achieved through vipassana bhavana based on just khanika samadhi (momentary concentration) with no jhana.
                > >
                > > >RE: I wish I knew the answer to that! I hope those who argue this way are correct, as many of us don't seem that adept at developing jhana - most especially including myself.
                > >
                > > T: I hope so too; but the question has been whether the easy path with no jhana really works to turn someone into at least a Sotapanna; jhana is required for sure for anagami-magga. The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha.
                >
                > That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer based only on this sutta.
                >
                > Best,
                > Rob E.
                >
                > - - - - - - - - - - - -
                >
              • Tep Sastri
                Hi Tadao (Rob E, et al.) - I think I like what you wrote, but there is an inkling doubt whether I clearly understand it ! [Tadao:] Studying of the scriptures
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 14, 2013
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                  Hi Tadao (Rob E, et al.) -

                  I think I like what you wrote, but there is an inkling doubt whether I clearly understand it !

                  [Tadao:] "Studying of the scriptures is useful as long as one does not think that accumulating certain amounts and kinds of knowledge would induce more sati and pannaa in one's daily life. The idea is based on attachment not on detachment."

                  T: By saying so, does it mean that you disagree with Deanna and Nina in the following conversation? But I might have misunderstood you!

                  > Deanna:
                  > If one lives one's life well
                  > and knows this moment deeply this will
                  > condition more moments
                  > of understanding to arise.

                  Nina:
                  Dear Shakti, good you stress this moment. Understanding now conditions understanding again later on.
                  ................

                  >Tadao: I think it depends on one's yoniso-manasikaara to regard what are beneficial and
                  what are not for the development of sati/pannaa.

                  T: That I agree. However, value of Dhamma discussion does not depend on agreement between discussion partners. :-)

                  >Tadao: But the idea of doing specific things to induce more sati/pannaa sounds very much motivated by self/attachment; hence it is not yonio-manasikaara (wise thinking) in its true sense. The point is that doing things without expectation is much much better than doing so with a full of expectation.

                  T: May I ask you to kindly answer two (innocent) questions for me, please?
                  1. Satipatthana bhavana is development of sati and panna. Is such development "motivated by self/attachment" as you see it?
                  2. Do you never set a goal (an expectation) for your Dhamma practice?

                  Thanking you in advance,
                  Tep
                  ===
                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..." <professortadaomiyamoto@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Tep and Rob
                  >
                  > Studying of the scriptures is useful as long as one does not think that accumulating certain mounts and kinds of knowledge would induce more sati and pannaa in one's daily life.
                  >
                  > The idea is based on attachment not on detachment.
                  >
                  > I think it depends on one's yoniso-manasikaara to regard what are beneficial and what
                  > are not for the development of sati/pannaa. But the idea of doing specific things to induce more sati/pannaa sounds very much motivated by self/attachment; hence it is not
                  > yonio-manasikaara (wise thinking) in its true sense.
                  >
                  > The point is that doing things without expectation is much much better than doing so with a full of expectation.
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  >
                  > tadao
                  >

                  <snipped>
                • Tep Sastri
                  Hi Rob E., - My reply is at the bottom. ... .......... T: So far it has appeared to me that we can (and should) help each other explore the teachings in the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 14, 2013
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                    Hi Rob E., -

                    My reply is at the bottom.

                    > >T: I hope that you will consider letting your friends know how such learning and its application ("practice") benefit you.

                    >R.E. : If I manage to put this plan into effect at some point, I will be happy to report back on what takes place.

                    >>T: The Bahiya story (Ud 1.10) does not tell us whether the "wise" Bahiya already had mastered the jhana (at least the first rupa-jhana) before he met the Buddha.

                    >R.E. : That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer based only on this sutta.
                    ..........

                    T: So far it has appeared to me that we can (and should) help each other explore the teachings in the Suttas and learn more. (Two good heads are better than one.)

                    Thanks,
                    Tep
                    ===
                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Tep.
                    >
                    <snipped>
                  • truth_aerator
                    Hello RobertE, all, ... I wonder if it is possible to make general statements from personal instructions found in any sutta. IMHO. With best wishes, Alex
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 14, 2013
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                      Hello RobertE, all,

                      >That is a good point. I guess we can't really determine the answer >based only on this sutta.
                      >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                      I wonder if it is possible to make general statements from personal instructions found in any sutta.

                      IMHO.

                      With best wishes,

                      Alex
                    • sarah
                      Hi Tep, ... ... S: I would say, that in order to develop right understanding, there has to be the hearing of the Teachings and the very careful study,
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 15, 2013
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                        Hi Tep,

                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@...> wrote:

                        > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows:
                        > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness.
                        ...
                        S: I would say, that in order to develop right understanding, there has to be the hearing of the Teachings and the very careful study, especially the careful study of dhammas (realities) as anatta. Whether we are talking about pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) or patipatti (direct right understanding, i.e. satipatthana), such understanding is always supported by right concentration, right effort and right mindfulness.

                        If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now.

                        Metta

                        Sarah
                        =====
                      • sarah
                        Dear Rob E (& Tep), ... .... S: You are thinking of the The Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN IV.170, or similar. We are reading about different
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 15, 2013
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                          Dear Rob E (& Tep),

                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
                          > I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time,....
                          ....
                          S: You are thinking of the The Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN IV.170, or similar.

                          We are reading about different accumulations, different kinds of cittas arising by conditions. There is never anyone to develop any factors or to choose what kind of cittas arise in what order.

                          Just like now - who can choose whether metta arises next, or lobha, or seeing or right understanding of visible object?

                          The Buddha knew all the different natures, dispositions, the 'asaya anusaya' (tendencies) of different cittas and pointed out all the various possibilities.

                          However, only one way - that of satipatthana - to reach the goal.

                          Metta

                          Sarah
                          ====
                        • sarah
                          Hi Rob E (& Tep), ... ... ... http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 15, 2013
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                            Hi Rob E (& Tep),

                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:

                            > Although I am uncertain on this subject, it seems to me that the scriptures seem to indicate that only those of superior faculties, rare individuals, such as Bahiya, can attain full enlightenment without jhana at least of a certain level, but I could be wrong!
                            ...
                            S: Bahiya is not a good example, however. Pls read what I wrote before on this topic:

                            >S: We read in th Bahiya sutta:
                            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/khuddaka/udana/ud1-10.html
                            that Bahiya became fully enlightened (an arahant) after hearing a few
                            sentences from the Buddha on the nature of realities. His wisdom was such
                            that it penetrated the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta and
                            we may think that this is a relatively simple matter.

                            In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a, translated by Peter Masefield), about how Bahiya
                            had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the
                            Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious
                            deeds. He had `gone forth' under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva
                            realms with `morality completely fulfilled'. In fact he had spent one
                            entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka.

                            Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people
                            after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from
                            bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as
                            one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was
                            completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him
                            respect. It took a visit by Great Brahma, a former deva companion and an
                            anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses.
                            Great Brahma tells him: "You now, though being no arahant, roam about
                            wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant.
                            You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to
                            views."

                            Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas,
                            have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have
                            attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about
                            self if they haven't reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in
                            the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of
                            being used to `wanting little, contentment and effacement' for a long time
                            and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and
                            therefore not experiencing defilements `as a result of abandoning in the
                            form of suppression'. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a
                            result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very
                            dangerous.

                            Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta,
                            it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the
                            Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha
                            knew "the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he
                            will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and
                            equanimity reasert themselves."<
                            ****

                            Metta,

                            Sarah
                            ======
                          • Tep Sastri
                            Hi Sarah, - They say Well begun is half done . Our discussion on right understanding was well begun! But when shall the other half be done too? ...
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 15, 2013
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                              Hi Sarah, -

                              They say "Well begun is half done". Our discussion on right understanding was well begun!
                              But when shall the other half be done too?
                              ................

                              >S: I would say, that in order to develop right understanding, there has to be the hearing of the Teachings and the very careful study, especially the careful study of dhammas (realities) as anatta. Whether we are talking about pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) or patipatti (direct right understanding, i.e. satipatthana), such understanding is always supported by right
                              concentration, right effort and right mindfulness.

                              T: Yes, right understanding is always supported by right concentration, right effort and right mindfulness. But knowing that is only half done.
                              ................

                              >S: If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now.

                              T: You might have forgotten that right effort is integrated and supported by virtues; sila and right behavior come first as the support for samma-samadhi and pannaa. But it does not mean that a Bhikkhu's sila must be perfected first before he can develop samadhi! Bhikkhu bodhi also explains the relationship of sila as support for samadhi and panna in his book: The Noble Eightfold Path
                              The Way to the End of Suffering.
                              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html

                              This is a very useful Sutta to study, Sarah: [Sekhapatipada Sutta is another good one! www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.053.than.html]

                              "Bhikkhus, be virtuous, observe the higher code of rules, conduct yourselves with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault. Bhikkhus, when the bhikkhu is virtuous, observing the higher code of rules, conducting himself with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault, what further has he to do?

                              "Even when walking he dispels his covetousness, aversion, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and doubts and his efforts are actively aroused, unconfused mindfulness is established, the body appeased without anger, the mind concentrated in one point. [Carato cepi, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno abhijjhaabyaapaado vigato hoti, thinamiddha.m uddhaccakukkucca.m vicikicchaa pahiinaa hoti, aaraddha.m hoti viiriya.m asalliina.m, upa.t.thitaa sati asammu.t.thaa, passaddho kaayo asaaraddho, samaahita.m citta.m ekagga.m.]

                              "Even when walking, if he is active and scrupulous, it is said that he is forever with aroused effort to dispel." etc. etc.
                              [AN 4.12 Siila sutta, or AN 002. Caravaggo 2. Siilasutta]
                              ............

                              Be virtuous,
                              Tep
                              ===
                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Tep,
                              >
                              > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Somehow I've got a feeling that the discussion on right understanding that I have made so far is not yet as clear as it should. So please allow me to make it clearer as follows:
                              > > In order to develop "right understanding" the mind has to be non-distracted and unified through right concentration which is supported by right effort and right mindfulness.
                              > ...
                              > S: I would say, that in order to develop right understanding, there has to be the hearing of the Teachings and the very careful study, especially the careful study of dhammas (realities) as anatta. Whether we are talking about pariyatti (right intellectual understanding) or patipatti (direct right understanding, i.e. satipatthana), such understanding is always supported by right concentration, right effort and right mindfulness.
                              >
                              > If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now.
                              >
                              > Metta
                              >
                              > Sarah
                              > =====
                              >
                            • Robert E
                              Hi Sarah. ... I think that being aware of these different orders of develop can help our understanding of what different individuals may need to do to satisfy
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 15, 2013
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                                Hi Sarah.

                                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Rob E (& Tep),
                                >
                                > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@> wrote:
                                > > I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time,....
                                > ....
                                > S: You are thinking of the The Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN IV.170, or similar.
                                >
                                > We are reading about different accumulations, different kinds of cittas arising by conditions. There is never anyone to develop any factors or to choose what kind of cittas arise in what order.
                                >
                                > Just like now - who can choose whether metta arises next, or lobha, or seeing or right understanding of visible object?
                                >
                                > The Buddha knew all the different natures, dispositions, the 'asaya anusaya' (tendencies) of different cittas and pointed out all the various possibilities.
                                >
                                > However, only one way - that of satipatthana - to reach the goal.

                                I think that being aware of these different orders of develop can help our understanding of what different individuals may need to do to satisfy the requirements of their particular accumulations and tendencies, in order for the path to arise. By showing interest in such things, I don't mean to imply there is any control, but there is an interest in understanding so that we don't mistake the patterns the path can take in different people. Some people may have a propensity to develop samatha which will lead them to the path by that means; and some people may develop sati in everyday life or some may develop satipatthana or jhana in a meditative environment, as was surely the case with the ancient monks. I think that such a sutta makes clear that we should not pre-judge the pattern of development that one or another individual goes through. For instance, those who advocate dry insight seem to look askance at the development of jhana, or at least think it is either unnecessary or highly unlikely. But what if that is exactly the predilection of someone, even today, for instance a modern monk who has the accumulations for this, and may be destined to develop satipatthana using jhana as object? There are Theravin monks like Ajahn Brahmavamso, whatever one may think of him otherwise, who is still alive today and who has cultivated and taught insight within jhana for decades. Meanwhile if that subject comes up it doesn't have any credibility here. My point is just that all these orders of development and aspects of path development laid out by the Buddha should be honored, and that the Buddha took careful and full acknowledgment of these different possibilities, and how they are intertwined or ordered for a given individual in the arising of their cittas. I think we should be correspondingly flexible in our understanding.

                                Of course, in the final analysis, only satipatthana will satisfy the requirements of the path, but how that comes to develop for a given person can be played out in several different ways. Why is this not equally important to the final fact of satipatthana?

                                Best,
                                Rob E.

                                - - - - - - - - - -
                              • Robert E
                                Hi Sarah. ... Great story - thanks for filling in the history of Bahiya. I am still interested in clarifying what conditions allow for dry insight. I think we
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 15, 2013
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                                  Hi Sarah.

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:

                                  > In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a, translated by Peter Masefield), about how Bahiya
                                  > had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the
                                  > Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious
                                  > deeds. He had `gone forth' under Buddha Kassapa and had lives in deva
                                  > realms with `morality completely fulfilled'. In fact he had spent one
                                  > entire Buddha sasana in the devaloka.
                                  >
                                  > Even so, in the present life, when he became highly respected by people
                                  > after he was shipwrecked and wandered around with only garments made from
                                  > bark, he mistakenly assumed he was an arahant because he was treated as
                                  > one. In fact he had not achieved any level of attainment at all and was
                                  > completely misguided, deceiving those who supported him and paid him
                                  > respect. It took a visit by Great Brahma, a former deva companion and an
                                  > anagami (non-returner)who took pity on him, to shock him to his senses.
                                  > Great Brahma tells him: "You now, though being no arahant, roam about
                                  > wearing the guise of a religious in the belief that you are an arahant.
                                  > You Bahiya are certainly no arahant. Renounce this evil resorting to
                                  > views."
                                  >
                                  > Hence, we see how even for those who have heard the Dhamma from Buddhas,
                                  > have had kalpas of rebirths as devas with wise companions, and have
                                  > attained all jhanas, they can still succomb badly to wrong views about
                                  > self if they haven't reached the first stage of enlightenment. We read in
                                  > the Ud-a about how the conceit of arahantship arose in him because of
                                  > being used to `wanting little, contentment and effacement' for a long time
                                  > and misjudging these states or because of having attained jhanas and
                                  > therefore not experiencing defilements `as a result of abandoning in the
                                  > form of suppression'. In other words, wrong views about attainments as a
                                  > result of not experiencing defilements for a long time can be very
                                  > dangerous.
                                  >
                                  > Urged by Great Brahma, he went to see the Buddha. As we read in the sutta,
                                  > it was only on a third occasion that the Buddha agreed to teach him the
                                  > Dhamma. In the Ud-a, we read that he was rejected twice because the Buddha
                                  > knew "the thrill of that joy is too powerful - even if he hears Dhamma he
                                  > will not, as yet, be able to pierce it. So let him wait until balance and
                                  > equanimity reasert themselves."<

                                  Great story - thanks for filling in the history of Bahiya. I am still interested in clarifying what conditions allow for dry insight. I think we have talked about it before, but I am not too clear.

                                  Best,
                                  Rob E.

                                  = = = = = = =
                                • sarah
                                  Hi Tep, ... ... S: This is adhi-siila (higher morality) that is being referred to, i.e. the morality which is associated with the development of right
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 20, 2013
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                                    Hi Tep,

                                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > >S: If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now.
                                    >
                                    > T: You might have forgotten that right effort is integrated and supported by virtues; sila and right behavior come first as the support for samma-samadhi and pannaa. But it does not mean that a Bhikkhu's sila must be perfected first before he can develop samadhi! Bhikkhu bodhi also explains the relationship of sila as support for samadhi and panna in his book: The Noble Eightfold Path
                                    > The Way to the End of Suffering.
                                    > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html
                                    >
                                    > This is a very useful Sutta to study, Sarah: [Sekhapatipada Sutta is another good one! www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.053.than.html]
                                    >
                                    > "Bhikkhus, be virtuous, observe the higher code of rules, conduct yourselves with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault. Bhikkhus, when the bhikkhu is virtuous, observing the higher code of rules, conducting himself with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault, what further has he to do?
                                    ...
                                    S: This is adhi-siila (higher morality) that is being referred to, i.e. the morality which is associated with the development of right understanding, satipatthana. The sotapanna only fulfills adhi-siila because only the ariyan disciple has eradicated wrong view of self and thereby the gross kilesa which lead worldlings to transgress the precepts. Without such understanding, how can "the slightest faults" ever be known?

                                    For those who had not heard the Buddha's Teachings, even though they had attained the highest jhanas, adhi-siila had not been accomplished. Defilements were merely suppressed temporarily. Why? No understanding of dhammas as anatta.
                                    ...
                                    Metta

                                    Sarah
                                    ====
                                  • sarah
                                    Hi Rob E, ... .. ... ... S: If we start thinking of what different individuals may need to do to satisfy the requirements of their particular accumulations
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 20, 2013
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                                      Hi Rob E,

                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:

                                      > > >R: I wish I had the sutta at hand - one day I must learn to keep track of what I read - but there is a nice one where the Buddha talks about the different orders in which some of the factors can be developed -- that some develop samatha first as a way towards vipassana, that others develop sati first and that this leads to concentration. Some develop both at the same time,....
                                      > > ....
                                      > > S: You are thinking of the The Yuganaddha Sutta (In Tandem sutta), AN IV.170, or similar.
                                      > >
                                      > > We are reading about different accumulations, different kinds of cittas arising by conditions. There is never anyone to develop any factors or to choose what kind of cittas arise in what order.
                                      > >
                                      > > Just like now - who can choose whether metta arises next, or lobha, or seeing or right understanding of visible object?
                                      > >
                                      > > The Buddha knew all the different natures, dispositions, the 'asaya anusaya' (tendencies) of different cittas and pointed out all the various possibilities.
                                      > >
                                      > > However, only one way - that of satipatthana - to reach the goal.
                                      ..
                                      >R: I think that being aware of these different orders of develop can help our understanding of what different individuals may need to do to satisfy the requirements of their particular accumulations and tendencies, in order for the path to arise.
                                      ...
                                      S: If we start thinking of "what different individuals may need to do to satisfy the requirements of their particular accumulations and tendencies", we are stuck again with the idea of Self doing something, taking some particular action instead of understanding conditioned realities at this very moment, no matter the accumulations.
                                      ...

                                      R:> By showing interest in such things, I don't mean to imply there is any control, but there is an interest in understanding so that we don't mistake the patterns the path can take in different people. Some people may have a propensity to develop samatha which will lead them to the path by that means; and some people may develop sati in everyday life or some may develop satipatthana or jhana in a meditative environment, as was surely the case with the ancient monks. I think that such a sutta makes clear that we should not pre-judge the pattern of development that one or another individual goes through.
                                      ...
                                      S: In truth, no one or individual to follow any pattern. Regardless of the tendencies or accumulations, there is only one path - that of the development of satipatthana in daily life through the understanding of dhammas as anatta. This is regardless of whether anger, jhana citta, seeing or visible object appears as object of sati and panna at this moment. Right understanding develops with detachment - detachment from the object of satipatthana.
                                      ...

                                      R:> For instance, those who advocate dry insight seem to look askance at the development of jhana, or at least think it is either unnecessary or highly unlikely.
                                      ...
                                      S: We have no idea of past accumulations or future accumulations. So any dhamma may arise anytime, any dhamma can be the object of understanding now. So as far as the path is concerned, it makes no difference whether the object is jhana citta or any other reality. if we mind or want to have specific states arise, such as jhana cittas, it's wrong practice.
                                      ...
                                      >R: But what if that is exactly the predilection of someone, even today, for instance a modern monk who has the accumulations for this, and may be destined to develop satipatthana using jhana as object?
                                      ...
                                      S: Is there detachment now or are they wishing/trying to attain certain states? The understanding of dhammas as anatta is most important.
                                      ...
                                      R:>There are Theravin monks like Ajahn Brahmavamso, whatever one may think of him otherwise, who is still alive today and who has cultivated and taught insight within jhana for decades.
                                      ...
                                      S: How do you know?

                                      Metta

                                      Sarah
                                      =====
                                    • sarah
                                      Hi Rob E, ... ... ... S: Do we know what kind of citta will arise next? Will it be seeing or hearing or thinking wisely or unwisely or a moment with
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 20, 2013
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                                        Hi Rob E,

                                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
                                        >

                                        > > In the commentary to this sutta (Ud-a, translated by Peter Masefield), about how Bahiya
                                        > > had first heard the Dhamma a hundred thousand kalpas in the past under the
                                        > > Buddha, Padumuttara and in that life had performed great meritorious
                                        > > deeds. <...>
                                        <...>
                                        > Great story - thanks for filling in the history of Bahiya. I am still interested in clarifying what conditions allow for dry insight. I think we have talked about it before, but I am not too clear.
                                        ...
                                        S: Do we know what kind of citta will arise next? Will it be seeing or hearing or thinking wisely or unwisely or a moment with great calm perhaps?

                                        The point is that there is no control at all as to what kind of citta will arise at any time at all. It just depends entirely on conditions. This is not only so in our cases, but was also so for the Buddha and those who listened to his Teachings.

                                        Did Bahiya know what cittas would arise when he met the Buddha? Did he know whether jhana cittas would arise immediately before becoming an arahat or whether it would be seeing, hearing, anger or anything else? As I recall when Sariputta heard the famous lines about conditions and became a sotapanna, there were no jhana cittas arising as basis for that enlightenment at that very time.

                                        So "dry insight" (sukkha vipassika) just refers to the kind of enlightenment, to what kind of cittas arise immediately prior to enlightenment by conditions. No selection, no choice and in terms of eradicating defilements, of no consequence.

                                        Metta

                                        Sarah
                                        =====
                                      • sarah
                                        Dear Rob E, ... .... S: I also believe it s a real hindrance if one has the idea of attaining jhana first or desiring a particular state. Even greater a
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 20, 2013
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                                          Dear Rob E,

                                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:

                                          > So "dry insight" (sukkha vipassika) just refers to the kind of enlightenment, to what kind of cittas arise immediately prior to enlightenment by conditions. No selection, no choice and in terms of eradicating defilements, of no consequence.
                                          ....
                                          S: I also believe it's a real hindrance if one has the idea of attaining jhana first or desiring a particular state. Even greater a hindrance is if there is the idea of having attained jhana or any other states in error - this is so whether one is a famous monk, a student of A.Sujin or anyone else.

                                          Metta

                                          Sarah
                                          ====
                                        • Tep Sastri
                                          Hi Sarah, Htoo - ... T: Let me add the Pali text: [Sampannasiilaa, bhikkhave, viharatha sampannapaatimokkhaa, paatimokkhasa s.amvarasa.mvutaa viharatha
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 20, 2013
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                                            Hi Sarah, Htoo -

                                            Thanks for the reply. We are discussing AN 4.12 Siila sutta :

                                            > > "Bhikkhus, be virtuous, observe the higher code of rules, conduct yourselves with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault. Bhikkhus, when the bhikkhu is virtuous, observing the higher code of rules, conducting himself with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault, what further has he to do?"

                                            T: Let me add the Pali text:
                                            [Sampannasiilaa, bhikkhave, viharatha sampannapaatimokkhaa, paatimokkhasa
                                            s.amvarasa.mvutaa viharatha aacaaragocarasampannaa, a.numattesu vajjesu
                                            bhayadassaavino samaadaaya sikkhatha sikkhaapadesu. Sampannasiilaana.m vo,
                                            bhikkhave, viharata.m sampannapaatimokkhaana.m paatimokkhasa.mvarasa.mvutaana.m
                                            viharata.m aacaaragocarasampannaana.m a.numattesu vajjesu bhayadassaaviina.m
                                            samaadaaya sikkhata.m sikkhaapadesu, kimassa uttari kara.niiya.m?]

                                            Note that sampanna : [pp. of sampajjati] = succeeded; prospered; happened; become.
                                            Samaadana = taking; observance; acceptance. Samaadaaya = having accepted.
                                            ...........
                                            > S: This is adhi-siila (higher morality) that is being referred to, i.e. the morality which is associated with the development of right understanding, satipatthana. The sotapanna only fulfills adhi-siila because only the ariyan disciple has eradicated wrong view of self and thereby the gross kilesa which lead worldlings to transgress the precepts. Without such understanding, how can "the slightest faults" ever be known?
                                            >
                                            T: The slightest faults in the Vinaya must be understood by all good monks, new or experienced monks, otherwise they cannot succeed. But that "understanding" is at the puthujjana level before satipatthana and panna. The Pali text of this Sutta shows that the Sila here is Patimokha Rules that every monk must follow. Once he is "virtuous" --having passed the Patimokha tests-- satipatthana in the four body postures is the next thing right after "what further has he to do?".

                                            Here is the proof:

                                            " ... when the bhikkhu is virtuous, observing the higher code of rules, conducting himself with the right behaviour, seeing fear in the slightest fault, what further has he to do?
                                            "Even when walking he dispels his covetousness, aversion, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and doubts and his efforts are actively aroused, unconfused mindfulness is established, the body appeased without anger, the mind concentrated in one point.
                                            Even when walking, if he is active and scrupulous, it is said that he is forever with aroused effort to dispel ...
                                            Even when standing, ... re ... or sitting, ... re ... or lying if he is awake, he dispels his covetousness, aversion, sloth and torpor, restlessness and worry and doubts and his efforts are actively aroused, unconfused mindfulness is established, the body appeased without anger, the mind concentrated in one point.
                                            Even when lying, if he is active and scrupulous, it is said that he is forever with aroused effort to dispel. ... ..."

                                            T: Clearly, after having practiced the "higher code of rules" (sampannapaatimokkhaana.m) the virtuous bhikkhu arouses effort to dispel the five hindrances, and his mindfulness is established in the body; then his mind is concentrated. At this stage of development of Sati and Samadhi in the virtuous Bhikkhu is practicing just the first effort of the four 'sammappadhana'; it is equivalent to indriyasamvara. More to go!! Don't be too eager to jump to No Self , No Nina, too soon.
                                            ..........

                                            Be well,
                                            Tep
                                            ===
                                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Tep,
                                            >
                                            > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <indriyabala@> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > >
                                            > > >S: If there is any idea of doing anything first, such as developing right concentration, right effort or right mindfulness first, it is not right understanding of the reality which appears now.
                                            > >
                                            > > T: You might have forgotten that right effort is integrated and supported by virtues; sila and right behavior come first as the support for samma-samadhi and pannaa. But it does not mean that a Bhikkhu's sila must be perfected first before he can develop samadhi! Bhikkhu bodhi also explains the relationship of sila as support for samadhi and panna in his book: The Noble Eightfold Path
                                            > > The Way to the End of Suffering.
                                            > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/waytoend.html
                                            > >
                                            ... ...
                                            > For those who had not heard the Buddha's Teachings, even though they had attained the highest jhanas, adhi-siila had not been accomplished. Defilements were merely suppressed temporarily. Why? No understanding of dhammas as anatta.
                                            > ...
                                            > Metta
                                            >
                                            > Sarah
                                            > ====
                                            >
                                          • Tep Sastri
                                            Hi Sarah, Htoo - Sentence with a small typo: At this stage of development of Sati and Samadhi in the virtuous Bhikkhu is practicing just the first effort of
                                            Message 21 of 23 , May 20, 2013
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                                              Hi Sarah, Htoo -

                                              Sentence with a small typo:
                                              At this stage of development of Sati and Samadhi in the virtuous Bhikkhu is practicing just the first effort of the four 'sammappadhana'; it is equivalent to indriyasamvara.

                                              To be corrected to :
                                              At this stage of development of Sati and Samadhi in the virtuous Bhikkhu, he is practicing just the first effort of the four 'sammappadhana'; it is equivalent to indriyasamvara.

                                              Thanks.
                                              Tep
                                              ===

                                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Tep Sastri" <tepsastri@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              ...
                                              >
                                              > T: Clearly, after having practiced the "higher code of rules" (sampannapaatimokkhaana.m) the virtuous bhikkhu arouses effort to dispel the five hindrances, and his mindfulness is established in the body; then his mind is concentrated. At this stage of development of Sati and Samadhi in the virtuous Bhikkhu is practicing just the first effort of the four 'sammappadhana'; it is equivalent to indriyasamvara. More to go!! Don't be too eager to jump to No Self , No Nina, too soon.
                                              > ..........
                                              >
                                              > Be well,
                                              > Tep
                                              > ===
                                            • sarah
                                              Hi Tep, ... ... S: Only the one who has developed satipatthana and has become an ariyan disciple will follow the Patimokkha perfectly and easily and will
                                              Message 22 of 23 , May 23, 2013
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                                                Hi Tep,

                                                > T: The slightest faults in the Vinaya must be understood by all good monks, new or experienced monks, otherwise they cannot succeed.
                                                ...
                                                S: Only the one who has developed satipatthana and has become an ariyan disciple will follow the Patimokkha perfectly and easily and will succeed in the monk's way of life.

                                                Without the development of satipatthana, it is impossible to see "the slightest faults".

                                                The one who is truly restrained in body, speech and mind is the one who has learnt to see the danger 'in the slightest faults'. As we read in the Vism, 'it is the four foundations of mindfulness on which the mind is anchored.' (1, 51).

                                                As Nina wrote before:

                                                >N: With regard to the restraint of the Paatimokkha, we read in the "Book of
                                                Analysis" (Ch 12, 244):

                                                Herein a bhikkhu dwells restrained and controlled by the Paatimokkha
                                                restraint, endowed with (proper) behaviour and a (suitable) alms resort,
                                                seeing peril in (his) slightest faults, observing (the precepts) he trains
                                                himself in the precepts....

                                                As regards restraint of the sense faculties, there are different levels of
                                                restraint. We read in the "Middle Length Sayings" (no. 27, Lesser
                                                Discourse on the Simile of the Elephant's Footprint) that the Buddha spoke
                                                to the brahman Jaanussoni about the monk who has restraint as to the
                                                sense-faculties:

                                                ... Having seen visible object with the eye he is not entranced by the
                                                general appearance, he is not entranced by the detail. If he dwells with
                                                this organ of sight uncontrolled, covetousness and dejection, evil
                                                unskilled states of mind, might predominate. So he fares along controlling
                                                it; he guards the organ of sight, he comes to control over the organ of
                                                sight....

                                                >N: The same is said with regard to the other senses and the mind-door. When
                                                awareness arises of visible object, sound or the other sense objects,
                                                there is no opportunity for the arising of akusala citta. At such a moment
                                                one does not harm anybody else through body or speech. When we understand
                                                which paramattha dhamma siila is, namely, citta and cetasika, it will be
                                                clear that there can be siila, even when one does not act or speak.
                                                Satipatthaana is the Buddha's teaching, and thus, satipatthaana should not
                                                be separated from the other ways of siila the monk should observe: the
                                                restraint of the 'Paatimokkha', the purity of livelihood and the use of the
                                                requisites which is purified by reflection.<
                                                ***
                                                Metta

                                                Sarah
                                                ====
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