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Re: What is fear?

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  • upasaka_howard
    Hi, Sarah (and Nina)- ... HCW: Ahhh! I didn t know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-)) [Sorry - I just couldn t resist my evil inclination!
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 5 7:50 AM
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      Hi, Sarah (and Nina)-

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Lukas,
      >
      > >L: What is fear?
      > ....
      >
      > S: Dosa cetasika
      -----------------------------
      HCW:
      Ahhh! I didn't know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-)) [Sorry - I just couldn't resist my evil inclination! LOL!]
      -----------------------------
      >
      > Metta
      >
      > Sarah
      > ======
      >
      =============================
      With metta,
      Howard

      P. S. As the Bard said: "What's in a name? A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

      P.P.S. Belated birthday wishes, Nina!
    • Kanchana Chuathong
      Fear is dosa cetasika which is akusala. Fear is also dhamma which is anatta. No one  want to fear, but it arises because of conditons which is attachment to
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 6 1:56 PM
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        Fear is dosa cetasika which is akusala. Fear is also dhamma which is anatta. No one  want to fear, but it arises because of conditons which is attachment to oneself.
        Best wishes
        Kanchana.




        ________________________________
        From: Lukas <szmicio@...>

        Dear friends,
        What is fear?
        <....>
      • azita
        SawatdeeKhunKanchana, Thank you for this precise post - short but full of truth. We don t like dosa because its accompanied by unpleasant feeling (and no-one
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 7 6:33 PM
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          SawatdeeKhunKanchana,

          Thank you for this precise post - short but full of truth.

          We don't like dosa because its accompanied by unpleasant feeling (and no-one likes that) but if for a brief moment there is some understanding that it is anatta and that its also conditioned, then there just might be some lessening of the clinging to having less dosa

          Live for understanding
          azita

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kanchana Chuathong <kchuathong@...> wrote:
          >
          > Fear is dosa cetasika which is akusala. Fear is also dhamma which is anatta. No one  want to fear, but it arises because of conditons which is attachment to oneself.
          > Best wishes
          > Kanchana.
          >
        • sarah
          Hi Howard, ... .... S: Ok, now it is cleared up , please elaborate and explain more about fear to Lukas :-)) Metta Sarah =====
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 8 12:31 AM
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            Hi Howard,

            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

            > > >L: What is fear?
            > > ....
            > >
            > > S: Dosa cetasika
            > -----------------------------
            > HCW:
            > Ahhh! I didn't know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-))
            ....
            S: Ok, now "it is cleared up", please elaborate and explain more about fear to Lukas :-))

            Metta

            Sarah
            =====
          • Lukas
            Dear friends, I am refreshed. Today I was in a bus to Olsztyn. Travel by bus is my upanissaya gocara for wise thinking since before I used to spend many
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 8 3:39 AM
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              Dear friends,
              I am refreshed. Today I was in a bus to Olsztyn. Travel by bus is my upanissaya gocara for wise thinking since before I used to spend many moments in the bus travelling to my University for 4 years and really that time developeig satipatthana for seeing and hearing. This trip was very refreshing since when I got into bus i realised that this is usual moment of understanding, what is now, seeing, hearing and thinking many thinkings. That was very refreshing trip. I meet two expert witness in Olsztyn. This forensics were hard to talk to. But I was kind and stayed with sharp mind. Now thay took off police from me. This is a big relief.

              Best wishes
              Lukas

              > S: Ok, now "it is cleared up", please elaborate and explain more about fear to Lukas :-))
            • upasaka_howard
              Hi, Sarah (and Lukas) - ... HCW: The fear that is explained is not the experienced fear. (Apologies to Lao Tze!) Nonetheless, we *can* talk about it: What we
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 8 4:56 AM
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                Hi, Sarah (and Lukas) -

                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Howard,
                >
                > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@ wrote:
                >
                > > > >L: What is fear?
                > > > ....
                > > >
                > > > S: Dosa cetasika
                > > -----------------------------
                > > HCW:
                > > Ahhh! I didn't know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-))
                > ....
                > S: Ok, now "it is cleared up", please elaborate and explain more about fear to Lukas :-))
                ------------------------------------
                HCW:
                The fear that is explained is not the experienced fear. (Apologies to Lao Tze!)
                Nonetheless, we *can* talk about it: What we call "fear" probably includes some things that are not actually fear - for example mere "awareness of danger" and "a sense of caution". But what I think is fear per se is a form of aversion, the hindrance of "anxiety" to be precise, most unpleasant, which is based in atta-sense in oneself and others and is conditioned by clinging. Like emotions in general, it is accompanied by a variety of physical phenomena - for example goose bumps, sweating, shaking, but also a physical energizing.
                ----------------------------------
                >
                > Metta
                >
                > Sarah
                > =====
                >
                =================================
                With metta,
                Howard

                /Suppose there were a river, flowing down from the mountains — going far, its current swift, carrying everything with it — and a man would open channels leading away from it on both sides, so that the current in the middle of the river would be dispersed, diffused, & dissipated; it wouldn't go far, its current wouldn't be swift, and it wouldn't carry everything with it. In the same way, when a seeker has not abandoned these five obstacles, hindrances that overwhelm awareness and weaken discernment, i.e., sensual desire, ill will, sloth & torpor, restlessness & ANXIETY, and sceptical doubt, when s/he is without strength and too weak in discernment to understand what is for one's own benefit, to understand what is for the benefit of others, to understand what is for the benefit of both, then to realize a superior human state, a truly noble distinction in knowledge & vision: that is impossible/

                (From the Avarana Sutta)
              • sarah
                Hi Howard, ... ... S: Exactly and this was the point as Lukas would have appreciated. It is so often taken for being my fear, but really is just a
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 8 6:04 AM
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                  Hi Howard,

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

                  > HCW:
                  >..... But what I think is fear per se is a form of aversion,
                  ...
                  S: Exactly and this was the point as Lukas would have appreciated. It is so often taken for being 'my' fear, but really is just a conditioned dhamma that doesn't last an instant. I knew he would reflect further in this way.
                  ...
                  >the hindrance of "anxiety" to be precise,
                  ...
                  S: In the context of the hindrances, anxiety or agitation are translations of uddhacca. Uddhacca is the restlessness which accompanies all akusala cittas, even those which arise with attachment and pleasant feeling. When there is restlessness, there is no calm.
                  ...
                  > most unpleasant, which is based in atta-sense in oneself and others and is conditioned by clinging.
                  ...
                  S: The reason it seems so unpleasant is because aversion is always accompanied by unpleasant feeling (domanassa). This is the reason we don't like the fear or other kinds of aversion. Usually, no one complains about attachment which is never accompanied by unpleasant feeling, but always about fear, worry, anxiety and so on.
                  ....
                  >Like emotions in general, it is accompanied by a variety of physical phenomena - for example goose bumps, sweating, shaking, but also a physical energizing.
                  ...
                  S: True that the the citta with aversion or fear can condition such rupas which manifest as you indicate.

                  Thanks, Howard, also to Kanchana and Azita....

                  Also plenty more detail in Useful Posts under "Fear".

                  Metta

                  Sarah
                  =====
                • sarah
                  Dear Lukas, ... .... S: Refreshed with kusala citta or with attachment? Either way it s momentary and anatta. ... ... S: It s the seeing, hearing, visible
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 8 6:15 AM
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                    Dear Lukas,

                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:

                    > I am refreshed.
                    ....
                    S: Refreshed with kusala citta or with attachment? Either way it's momentary and anatta.
                    ....
                    >Today I was in a bus to Olsztyn. Travel by bus is my upanissaya gocara for wise thinking since before I used to spend many moments in the bus travelling to my University for 4 years and really that time developeig satipatthana for seeing and hearing. This trip was very refreshing since when I got into bus i realised that this is usual moment of understanding, what is now, seeing, hearing and thinking many thinkings.
                    ...
                    S: It's the seeing, hearing, visible object, thinking and other realities that are the upanissaya gocara, not the 'travel by bus'. However, we can say in a conventional sense, that the bus ride was the suitable (sappaya) place.
                    ....
                    >That was very refreshing trip. I meet two expert witness in Olsztyn. This forensics were hard to talk to. But I was kind and stayed with sharp mind. Now thay took off police from me. This is a big relief.
                    ...
                    S: I'm glad to hear this too. We all appeciate kind associations. The "big relief" - momentary attachment and pleasant feeling (for me too). Who knows whether fear or attachment will arise next on account of what is seen or heard? It just depends on conditions - all so anatta. Understanding more about such dhammas now is upanissaya gocara - right intellectual understanding of the object, leading to direct understanding of the present realities now.

                    Thanks for sharing your good news, Lukas. Stay well and sober with understanding!

                    Metta

                    Sarah
                    =====
                  • Kanchana Chuathong
                    Sawatdee Khun Azita,   Glad to hear from you, Thank you for your encouragement. I would like to join DSG but my poor English prevent me from that.  I would
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 14 6:35 AM
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                      Sawatdee Khun Azita,
                      � Glad to hear from you, Thank you for your encouragement. I would like to join DSG but my poor English prevent me from that.� I would like to know� if you want to join the trip to Da Lat with us or not. (10 Sept. - 13 Sept.) I will forward the details to you.�
                      �It' s a very good words that you said

                      �"Live for understanding more and more",
                      Kanchana (Dang).



                      ________________________________
                      From: azita <gazita2002@...>

                      SawatdeeKhunKanchana,

                      Thank you for this precise post - short but full of truth.

                      We don't like dosa because its accompanied by unpleasant feeling (and no-one likes that) but if for a brief moment there is some understanding that it is anatta and that its also conditioned, then there just might be some lessening of the clinging to having less dosa

                      Live for understanding
                      <....>
                    • philip
                      Dear group I came across this post ... I don t understand the joke (which I guess it was judging by the winking and outbursts of laughter) but it is good to
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jul 20, 2013
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                        Dear group


                        I came across this post

                        > > >L: What is fear?
                        > > ....
                        > >
                        > > S: Dosa cetasika
                        > -----------------------------
                        > HCW:
                        > Ahhh! I didn't know what fear was before, but now it is cleared up! ;-)) [Sorry - I just couldn't resist my evil inclination! LOL!]
                        > -----------------------------

                        I don't understand the joke (which I guess it was judging by the winking and outbursts of laughter) but it is good to know what fear is, clearly defined by Abhidhamma and expkained by the wise Dhamma friend. Otherwise we will come up with our own complex theories through a lot of thinking, perhaps fueled by speculation on suttas in translation.

                        Phil
                      • Ken H
                        Hi Phil, ... Ph: I don t understand the joke (which I guess it was judging by the winking and outbursts of laughter) but it is good to know what fear
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jul 21, 2013
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                          Hi Phil,

                          A good subject for a post, Phil:

                          ------
                          <. . .>
                          Ph: I don't understand the joke (which I guess it was judging by the winking and outbursts of laughter) but it is good to know what fear is, clearly defined by Abhidhamma and explained by the wise Dhamma friend. Otherwise we will come up with our own complex theories through a lot of thinking, perhaps fueled by speculation on suttas in translation.
                          -----

                          KH: I suppose fear is what makes samsara such an unpleasant place.

                          Therefore, it is especially good to know that fear is just a conditioned dhamma. Just like all the other conditioned dhammas it is inherently anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is not suitable for anything except dispassion, disinterest and renunciation.

                          Move on folks, there's nothing to see here.

                          Ken H
                        • philip
                          ... Hi Ken H ... Just a reality, performing its function in a way that was enlightened by the Buddha and taught in explicit terms in Abhidhamma and the rest of
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jul 22, 2013
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                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Phil,
                            >

                            Hi Ken H
                            >
                            > Therefore, it is especially good to know that fear is just a conditioned dhamma. Just like all the other conditioned dhammas it is inherently anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is not suitable for anything except dispassion, disinterest and renunciation.

                            Just a reality, performing its function in a way that was enlightened by the Buddha and taught in explicit terms in Abhidhamma and the rest of tipitika. What makes it possible for us to accept this while others are compelled to come up with thinkbombs based on personal interpretations of Mahayana yadayadas? More realities performing functions.

                            Let's feel fortunate for our accumulations, though as you said above just as fear is just a c d that is anicca dukkha and anatta so are panna and other kusala factors associated with benefial accumulations. Just realities rising to performing functions and then fall away, never to appear again

                            Phil
                          • colette_aube
                            Hi Phil and Ken H, I check in now and then, just to see what s goin on, here. This post was very welcomed. It seems, however, that we in the Buddhist
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jul 22, 2013
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                              Hi Phil and Ken H,

                              I check in now and then, just to see what's goin' on, here. This post was very welcomed.

                              <....>
                              It seems, however, that we in the Buddhist community have the ability to recognize what good and what bad actually are (kusala and akusala, etc).

                              Thank you for the re-assurances and pleasure of reading another person speak sanely for once.

                              toodles,
                              colette
                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:

                              > > Therefore, it is especially good to know that fear is just a conditioned dhamma. Just like all the other conditioned dhammas it is inherently anicca, dukkha and anatta. It is not suitable for anything except dispassion, disinterest and renunciation.
                              >
                              > Just a reality, performing its function in a way that was enlightened by the Buddha and taught in explicit terms in Abhidhamma and the rest of tipitika. What makes it possible for us to accept this while others are compelled to come up with thinkbombs based on personal interpretations of Mahayana yadayadas? More realities performing functions.
                              >
                              > Let's feel fortunate for our accumulations, though as you said above just as fear is just a c d that is anicca dukkha and anatta so are panna and other kusala factors associated with benefial accumulations. Just realities rising to performing functions and then fall away, never to appear again
                              >
                              > Phil
                              >
                            • philip
                              Hi Colette ... Hmmm. In my opinion rather than the ability to recognize what is kusala and what is akusala the fact that they are just dhammas rising and
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jul 22, 2013
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                                Hi Colette
                                > I check in now and then, just to see what's goin' on, here. This post was very welcomed.
                                >
                                > <....>
                                > It seems, however, that we in the Buddhist community have the ability to recognize what good and what bad actually are (kusala and akusala, etc).
                                >
                                > Thank you for the re-assurances and pleasure of reading another person speak sanely for once.

                                Hmmm. In my opinion rather than the ability to recognize what is kusala and what is akusala the fact that they are just dhammas rising and falling away again, gone forever, is the most beneficial thing. If we get too interested in distinguishing kusala from akusala and wanting to have the former it just becomes all about being the virtuous kusala person. Isn't it much more reassuring to know that there is no self, just dhammas rising and falling away. The akusala ones, the kusala ones, nothing to get worked up about, we are released from worry the deeper we get into Abhidhamma, I think.

                                Phil
                              • philip
                                Hi again Colette ... Maybe I went too far here. Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala kamma
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jul 23, 2013
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                                  Hi again Colette

                                  > Isn't it much more reassuring to know that there is no self, just dhammas rising and falling away. The akusala ones, the kusala ones, nothing to get worked up about, we are released from worry the deeper we get into Abhidhamma, I think.
                                  >

                                  Maybe I went too far here. Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala kamma patha, for example, must be some kind of wrong view. Bit there has to be equanimous understanding that akusala has been arising for a hell of a long time and will continue to do so. If we fight against that, it will be a futile exercise of deluded cittas. But we can feel confident that there is more and more understanding, the most valuable kind of kusala.

                                  Thanks for your stimulating comment!

                                  Phil
                                • colette_aube
                                  Hi Phil ... colette: one man s trash is another man s treasure.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jul 24, 2013
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                                    Hi Phil

                                    > Hmmm. In my opinion rather than the ability to recognize what is kusala and what is akusala the fact that they are just dhammas rising and falling away again, gone forever, is the most beneficial thing. If we get too interested in distinguishing kusala from akusala and wanting to have the former it just becomes all about being the virtuous kusala person. Isn't it much more reassuring to know that there is no self, just dhammas rising and falling away. The akusala ones, the kusala ones, nothing to get worked up about, we are released from worry the deeper we get into Abhidhamma, I think.
                                    >
                                    > Phil

                                    colette: one man's trash is another man's treasure.
                                  • colette_aube
                                    Hi Phil, again, ... colette: WITHOUT QUESTION, nough said. Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jul 24, 2013
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                                      Hi Phil, again,
                                      > Maybe I went too far here.

                                      colette: WITHOUT QUESTION, 'nough said.

                                      Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala kamma patha, for example, must be some kind of wrong view. Bit there has to be equanimous understanding that akusala has been arising for a hell of a long time and will continue to do so. If we fight against that, it will be a futile exercise of deluded cittas. But we can feel confident that there is more and more understanding, the most valuable kind of kusala.

                                      colette: Kusala and Akusala ARE NOTHING MORE THAN CHOICES THAT AN INDIVIDUAL MAKES FOR THEMSELVES. I CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS BAD. Even if I do try to tell you what is good and what is bad, my action has nothing to do with YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE DECISION FOR YOURSELF.

                                      Can't we say that DOGMA is nothing more than an EXTREME. <....>

                                      "NAME AND FORM", take for instance, these alleged "PEARLY GATES" into this prison system or insane assylum (an INSTITUTION). People have chosen to label, to NAME, one side differently from the other, yet the names rest on the foundation of DUALITY. On one side we have THE PILLAR OF MERCY and the other side, naturally, if not obviously, is the PILLAR OF SEVERITY i.e. PASSIVE AGRESSIVE.

                                      Are we obligated by some delusional mandate or dictate, that some group of people decided to INSTITUTIONALIZE, which says that we have to make a decision and either exist on one side or the other side?

                                      What about THE MIDDLE PATH? If I take a FORCE of PURE MERCY and put it into CONFLICT with the FORCE of PURE SEVERITY then you surely must know where the point is that is, that exists, as SUNYA. Have you ever enjoyed the bliss that Szechuan or Thai cooking can bring to the pallet or do you prefer CANTONESE, freshly taken from swimming in the water then suddenly seared in a Wok? Ah yes, but I'm in the middle of TANTRA so maybe I shouldn't bring to the table that deliscious GHOST PEPPER that India is home of.
                                      ------------------
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for your stimulating comment!
                                      >
                                      colette: but only now have I pricked your interest in the NAGA BHUT JOLOKIA aka GHOST PEPPER, AS A MEANS OF STIMULATION. ;)

                                      toodles,
                                      colette
                                    • philip
                                      Hi Colette ... Ph: well, we can rely on tipikita about what is good or bad, though there are other ways to translate kusala and akusala... Certainly no one
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jul 26, 2013
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                                        Hi Colette
                                        >
                                        > Obviously it is preferable if kusala arises, being totally unconcerned about the results of akusala kamma patha, for example, must be some kind of wrong view. Bit there has to be equanimous understanding that akusala has been arising for a hell of a long time and will continue to do so. If we fight against that, it will be a futile exercise of deluded cittas. But we can feel confident that there is more and more understanding, the most valuable kind of kusala.
                                        >
                                        > colette: Kusala and Akusala ARE NOTHING MORE THAN CHOICES THAT AN INDIVIDUAL MAKES FOR THEMSELVES. I CANNOT TELL YOU WHAT IS GOOD AND WHAT IS BAD. Even if I do try to tell you what is good and what is bad, my action has nothing to do with YOUR RESPONSIBILITY TO MAKE THE DECISION FOR YOURSELF.

                                        Ph: well, we can rely on tipikita about what is good or bad, though there are other ways to translate kusala and akusala...

                                        Certainly no one else is responsible for our kamma, but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices though of couse dhamma perform that function.

                                        Thanks.

                                        Phil
                                      • colette_aube
                                        ... colette: you leave me no choice but to question your application of the word Kamma which may be a misspelling of the word Karma which is what
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jul 27, 2013
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                                          <PHIL>

                                          > Certainly no one else is responsible for our kamma, but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices though of couse dhamma perform that function.
                                          >

                                          colette: you leave me no choice but to question your application of the word "Kamma" which may be a misspelling of the word "Karma" which is what you are meaning and pointing at, here.

                                          What is this utter <....> and FALSE WITNESS: "...but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices..."?

                                          Are you one of those slaves who proclaim that all creation is SLAVERY and is possessed and controlled by some "creator deity"? That "shtick" is quite old and very used up as though it were a beaten path or ho chi min trail for slaves to follow as they beg to wear the suicide vest.

                                          Do you, PHIL, actually mean to suggest that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR BEHAVIOR, THE THOUGHTS THAT YOU HAVE AND HAD WHICH GAVE RISE TO YOUR BEHAVIOR, AND THE RESULTANT PHENOMENA THAT IS CREATED THROUGH (BECAUSE OF) YOUR BEHAVIOR? How long do we have to listen to your speach before you tell us that your shit does not stink?

                                          How can you or I or anybody exist, how can anything exist, through your capitulation to PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS? You suggest that because everything was already pre-existent then you have no responsibility for it and will not dare to change it because you cannot live, you cannot exist, if you risk anything, if you are not garraunteed 100% victory and control of everything?

                                          toodles,
                                          colette
                                        • philip
                                          Hi Collette and Connie Just a quicky on the way to the airport but as for self respnsibility I am pretty confident that hiri otappa (the twin guardians of the
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jul 27, 2013
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                                            Hi Collette and Connie


                                            Just a quicky on the way to the airport but as for self respnsibility I am pretty confident that hiri otappa (the twin guardians of the world and pannaand so many other kusala dhammas are developing in a way that they perform wise choices about behaviour. Maybe striving to be a good prson is effective in the short term but I believe correct understanding of Dhamma supports moraility in the short term and also in the long term.Trying to be a good person is counter-productive in the long term because wrong view of a self that can control the way dhammas play out will just keep us trapped in a misery of failed expectations forever.

                                            Thanks, gotta go, moderators sorry for the no trim.

                                            Phil


                                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "colette_aube" <colette_aube@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > <PHIL>
                                            >
                                            > > Certainly no one else is responsible for our kamma, but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices though of couse dhamma perform that function.
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > colette: you leave me no choice but to question your application of the word "Kamma" which may be a misspelling of the word "Karma" which is what you are meaning and pointing at, here.
                                            >
                                            > What is this utter <....> and FALSE WITNESS: "...but i don't really get into the idea of self-responsibilityand making choices..."?
                                            >
                                            > Are you one of those slaves who proclaim that all creation is SLAVERY and is possessed and controlled by some "creator deity"? That "shtick" is quite old and very used up as though it were a beaten path or ho chi min trail for slaves to follow as they beg to wear the suicid
                                            >
                                            > Do you, PHIL, actually mean to suggest that YOU ARE NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR YOUR BEHAVIOR, THE THOUGHTS THAT YOU HAVE AND HAD WHICH GAVE RISE TO YOUR BEHAVIOR, AND THE RESULTANT PHENOMENA THAT IS CREATED THROUGH (BECAUSE OF) YOUR BEHAVIOR? How long do we have to listen to your speach before you tell us that your shit does not stink?
                                            >
                                            > How can you or I or anybody exist, how can anything exist, through your capitulation to PRE-EXISTING CONDITIONS? You suggest that because everything was already pre-existent then you have no responsibility for it and will not dare to change it because you cannot live, you cannot exist, if you risk anything, if you are not garraunteed 100% victory and control of everything?
                                            >
                                            > toodles,
                                            > colette
                                            >
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