Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Question on Parami

Expand Messages
  • Linh Hong
    It s much clearer. Thanks a million, Nina, Sarah & Jagkrit & all. Anumodhana! Linh [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 1, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      It's much clearer. Thanks a million, Nina, Sarah & Jagkrit & all.

      Anumodhana!


      Linh

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • tadaomiyamoto@ymail.com
      Hi Linh and Nina, A couple of weeks ago, I asked Kun Sujin about parami and I got very much the same answer as what Kun Nina explained below. One thing which I
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 1, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Linh and Nina,

        A couple of weeks ago, I asked Kun Sujin about parami and I got very much the same answer as what Kun Nina explained below. One thing which I learned new was that
        unlike in Mahayana, in Theravada the significance is placed on "non-self". So it is not I who have been accumulating the ten paramis.

        Also Kun Sujin said that when the Buddha had been accumulating paramis in his countless previous lives, he had done so with understanding of non-self. In other words, it is not at his final moment of enlightenment when he penetrated the characteristic of non-self, but the notion of non-self had always been with his endevour.

        Again, conforming to what Kun Nina said below, Kun Sujin emphasized the importance of accumulating all kinds of kusala, saying that sati and panna would not grow if one is not sincere about developing all kinds of kusala.

        tadao
        <....>
        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        > N: As Sarah explained to you, we need all paramis, we have so many
        > defilements. These makes one too weak to reach the other shore. The
        > paramis are like medicine and food for us on the long, long way. They
        > go together with pa~n~naa, our goal is not to "have" them for
        > ourselves, but to lessen defilements.
        > You asked about saddhaa, etc. Acharn explained that we do not have to
        > think of the names of the paramis, but the meaning is: the
        > development of all kinds of kusala through body, speech and mind. And
        > as Sarah explained, all paramis support each other and are together.
        > All good qualities are being developed, saddhaa, confidence,
        > included. This cetasika arises with each kind of kusala. The ten
        > paramis are mentioned to help us and encourage us while developing
        > satipa.t.thaana. Otherwise we may forget certain aspects of kusala,
        > like patience, khanti. Or equanimity, upekkhaa. Or viriya, effort,
        > energy or courage.
        <...>
      • sarah
        Dear Linh, ... .... S: The most important aspect of the development of panna is the relinquishment of the idea of self, the giving up of the idea that it is
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 2, 2013
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Linh,

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Linh Hong <honglinhftu@...> wrote:
          >
          > Thank Sarah for such quick help!
          >
          > I share the same ideas that developing panna is a long long process and when we all were born with kilesas, if there is no support from other qualities: dana, sila,nekkhama,...,it will so hard to achieve panna parami. However, i'm still little confused. Somewhat i still think that panna is the only thing that we need to develop, and others come later. Seems i've mixed all qualities in one panna. Can we make it clearer?
          ....
          S: The most important aspect of the development of panna is the relinquishment of the idea of self, the giving up of the idea that it is *we* who develops panna or can *do* anything at all. For such understanding to develop, there has to be a lot of listening to and careful consideration of all kinds of dhammas, all kinds of realities.

          Usually, there's too much impatience for results, too much attachment, a lack of honesty about what is conditioned at the present moment, not enough determination or resolution with regard to following the path, not enough confidence in the value of just understanding what is conditioned already.

          So, we can see that panna needs the support of all these other qualities, paramis, to support its growth, otherwise there's no way to overcome the great accumulation of unwholesome tendencies and, in particular, the very strong idea of a Self that can achieve results and direct life, in addition to the strong ideas of what is seen, heard and so on as being people and things.
          ...
          >
          > One more question!
          >
          > Why we don't have some other paramis such as sati parami, saddha parami,...etc...I mean we have all 19 sobha cetasikas. When sobha one arises, then akusala cannot arise, and with panna eqquiped, it can be parami? 
          ...
          S: Actually, *we* don't have any parami (perfections). When there are conditions for awareness, confidence and other beautiful factors to arise, they arise. That's all. So the "why?" questions all come down to conditions, many complex conditions.
          ...
          >
          > Hope you can understand my "clumsy English".
          ...
          S: No problem at all..... :-) I really appreciate the questions and considerations.

          Metta

          Sarah
          ====
        • sarah
          Dear Jagkrit & Linh, A good sutta to quote in this context. Thank you. ... ... ... S: Well said. Metta Sarah =====
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 2, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Jagkrit & Linh,

            A good sutta to quote in this context. Thank you.

            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:

            > JJ: Linh's question about panna's quality reminds me to one sutta directing to heedfulness which is the development of panna and its supreme quality.
            >
            > AN 10.15 PTS: A v 21
            > Appamada Sutta: Heedfulness
            <...>
            > "Just as the great rivers — such as the Ganges, the Yamuna, the Aciravati, the Sarabhu, & the Mahi — all go to the ocean, incline to the ocean, slope to the ocean, tend toward the ocean, and the ocean is reckoned the foremost among them; in the same way, all skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned the foremost among them."
            >
            > ............
            >
            > When come back to Linh's question of mixing all quality in one panna, this smile somehow shall clarify in comparison that other paramis which is kusala dhamma or skillful quality do not mix in one panna but these paramis are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness which is the development of panna.
            ...

            S: Well said.

            Metta

            Sarah
            =====
          • tadaomiyamoto@ymail.com
            Hi Sarah, Thank you for citing an appropriate sutta. tadao
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 2, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Sarah,

              Thank you for citing an appropriate sutta.

              tadao

              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Jagkrit & Linh,
              >
              > A good sutta to quote in this context. Thank you.
              >
              > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@> wrote:
              >
              > > JJ: Linh's question about panna's quality reminds me to one sutta directing to heedfulness which is the development of panna and its supreme quality.
              > >
              > > AN 10.15 PTS: A v 21
              > > Appamada Sutta: Heedfulness
              > <...>
              > > "Just as the great rivers  such as the Ganges, the Yamuna, the Aciravati, the Sarabhu, & the Mahi  all go to the ocean, incline to the ocean, slope to the ocean, tend toward the ocean, and the ocean is reckoned the foremost among them; in the same way, all skillful qualities are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness, and heedfulness is reckoned the foremost among them."
              > >
              > > ............
              > >
              > > When come back to Linh's question of mixing all quality in one panna, this smile somehow shall clarify in comparison that other paramis which is kusala dhamma or skillful quality do not mix in one panna but these paramis are rooted in heedfulness, converge in heedfulness which is the development of panna.
              > ...
              >
              > S: Well said.
              >
              > Metta
              >
              > Sarah
              > =====
              >
            • sarah
              Hi Tadao, ... ... S: If there is no understanding of realities as anatta, there is no development of the paramis (perfections) at all. ... ... S: As I
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 7, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Tadao,

                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "tadaomiyamoto@..."
                > A couple of weeks ago, I asked Kun Sujin about parami and I got very much the same answer as what Kun Nina explained below. One thing which I learned new was that
                > unlike in Mahayana, in Theravada the significance is placed on "non-self". So it is not I who have been accumulating the ten paramis.
                ...
                S: If there is no understanding of realities as anatta, there is no development of the paramis (perfections) at all.
                ...
                >
                > Also Kun Sujin said that when the Buddha had been accumulating paramis in his countless previous lives, he had done so with understanding of non-self. In other words, it is not at his final moment of enlightenment when he penetrated the characteristic of non-self, but the notion of non-self had always been with his endevour.
                ...
                S: As I understand, there was the development of understanding, the development of satipatthana from having listened to previous Buddhas, but not the arising of the vipassana nanas until immediately before his final enlightenment, otherwise he wouldn't be a Samma Sambuddha.
                ...

                Metta

                Sarah
                ======
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.