Hi, Ken (and Thomas) - ... ============================== Ken, in the Channa Sutta there is the following quoted from the Kaccayanagota Sutta:
Message 1 of 158
, Mar 31 5:43 AM
Hi, Ken (and Thomas) -
--- In email@example.com, "Ken H" <kenhowardau@...> wrote:
> Hi Thomas,
> <. . .>
> > T: According to the SN 22. 90 (= SA 262), to say a dhamma (dharma) exists, this is one extreme;
> KH: I am sure I have the right sutta; it's the Channa Sutta, isn't it? You have quoted it to me several times and I have quoted it back to you. The one I am reading does not say what you have said it says. It does not call "a dhamma exists" an extreme view.
> > T: to say a dhamma does not exist, this is the other extreme. Not
> approaching either extreme, the Buddha teaches the dhamma by the middle.
> KH: A capital D for Dhamma in that second sentence would have confirmed that you were talking about the Buddha's teaching, (A small d dhamma usually denotes a nama or rupa.) And yes, the Buddha did teach the Dhamma by the middle way. He taught the way of conditioned dhammas fleeting, impersonal, mental and physical phenomena that exist absolutely.
> > T: As I said before, it "means to be devoid (empty) of the two extremes: the self-based view of existence and the self-based view of non-existence.
> KH: Thanks, but that doesn't help. I asked if you could clarify the doubletalk "a dhamma exists but not in its own right," "not with its own being" etc. What you have given me is just more of the same.
> A dhamma can't be empty of the two extremes. In fact, the two extremes are, themselves, dhammas. They are sakkaya-ditthi.
> I earnestly recommend you ditch all modern interpretations of the Dhamma; they rely on smoke and mirrors. And they all leave the way open for sakkaya-ditthi. That's their attraction.
> Ken H
Ken, in the Channa Sutta there is the following quoted from the Kaccayanagota Sutta: <'By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "non-existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, "existence" with reference to the world does not occur to one.>. What is this "world" other than "the all," consisting of all dhammas? Neither true existence nor non-existence holds, but emptiness of self-existence does hold, and both in paramattha dhammas and in every aggregate of dhammas called "a person." The latter absence is the non-existence of personal self. (My understanding.)
/Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately./
(From the Phena Sutta)
/He who does not find core or substance in any of the realms of being, like flowers which are vainly sought in fig trees that bear none such a seeker gives up the here and the beyond, just as a serpent sheds its worn-out skin./
(From the Uraga Sutta)
Hi Sarah. ... I continue to think this is a very zen approach to Dhamma - I think if you called it zen you d probably convert a bunch of Mahayanists, as it
> S: Better to just talk about realities, paramattha dhammas that can be understood now. I think this is more productive than discussions about formal meditation.
> This morning at breakfast, another swimmer started asking me about retreats and meditation because of stress issues. I just started talking about 'now', about seeing now, hearing now, 'meditation' now, even in the noisy cafe. Otherwise, there's always a thinking about another time, another place, never any understanding or awareness now. She appreciated it!
I continue to think this is a very "zen" approach to Dhamma - I think if you called it "zen" you'd probably convert a bunch of Mahayanists, as it is very appealing, and I agree really is the heart of becoming aware, which can only happen at this moment now.
A favorite quote of mine is sort of analogous in its simplicity, from the avant-garde saxaphonist/bass clarinetist Eric Dolphy, now deceased: "Music, after it's over, it's gone in the air - you can never capture it again."
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