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Re: [dsg] "Is that enough to develop understanding?"

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Phil, ... N: As Acharn says: a glimpse of understanding. Understanding is like a drop in the ocean of ignorance. ... N: As Acharn says: because of me. As
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 24, 2013
      Dear Phil,
      Op 22-mrt-2013, om 23:43 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

      > I still think the "cold shower" of "there is no Nina" is premature
      > for us, if we are comforted by thinking this, there is some sort of
      > misappropriation of panna that we haven't really developed yet, it
      > seems to me. But we can gradually approach the deep truth, get
      > glimpses of it.
      >
      ------
      N: As Acharn says: a glimpse of understanding. Understanding is like
      a drop in the ocean of ignorance.
      -------
      > Ph: But for now our loved ones are horrifibly real. I say horribly
      > real because there is so much suffering of worrying about them. And
      > beautifully real because they are such precious companions. These
      > days I worry about Naomi getting ill. She works such long hours. I
      > suffer worrying about our old age together, counting pennies. All
      > this useless worrying.
      >
      -------
      N: As Acharn says: because of me.
      As to seeking comfort in understanding and lobha, a fact you mention
      often, at the moment of understanding there is no lobha, since
      understanding always goes together with alobha, detachment.
      -------
      >
      > Last night I was comforted by this, from SPD:
      >
      > "We may believe that everything belongs to us, but such a belief
      > occurs only at the moments when vitthi cittas arise. When vitthi
      > cittas do not arise, we do not see, hear, smell etc, we do not
      > experience any object through the six doors....why then do we not
      > develop panna so that attachment and clinging to the objects that
      > appear through the six doors will be eradicated and there will be
      > less akusala. "
      >
      ------
      N: This is true, we can check this to some extent.
      -------
      Ph: Is there also sakkaya ditthi when we take seeing for self, sanna
      for self etc, or only when we take all khandas together as unit for
      self?
      ------
      N: You received answers. I am not inclined to think of Khandhas as a
      unit , but consider one reality at a time. Khandhas as a unit seems
      so theoretical. What appears now? Feeling? Feeling is khandha. We
      believe we are in feeling, feeling is in us, etc.

      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lukas
      Dear Nina and Phil, I think it all must be very natural, like daily life. Right understanding, not different than daily life. ... L: I asked recently via
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 24, 2013
        Dear Nina and Phil,
        I think it all must be very natural, like daily life. Right understanding, not different than daily life.

        > -------
        > N: As Acharn says: because of me.
        > As to seeking comfort in understanding and lobha, a fact you mention
        > often, at the moment of understanding there is no lobha, since
        > understanding always goes together with alobha, detachment.
        > -------

        L: I asked recently via internet. Understanding doesnt come even I would like to understand. Acharn repeated: 'I would like to'. She added later: 'Right understanding cannot attached to anything'.

        Best wishes
        Lukas
      • philip
        Hi Nina (and Jon and Lukas) ... Or an opening in the dome of lobha, or the curtain of moha. Well, both. That rare island of understanding, momentary, arising
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 25, 2013
          Hi Nina (and Jon and Lukas)

          > ------
          > N: As Acharn says: a glimpse of understanding. Understanding is like
          > a drop in the ocean of ignorance.

          Or an opening in the dome of lobha, or the curtain of moha. Well, both. That rare island of understanding, momentary, arising due to conditions, with alobha. I think listening is helpful for this, we listen without forcing understanding, but it clicks now and then.

          At other times, we push, and force things. Venerable Dhammadaro speaks very well about this in part 2 of his talks in the audio file. He talks about subtle wrong practice. It's easy to see obvious wrong practice, such as meditation, walking slow etc. But what about subtle wrong practice. For example, we might look hard at an object, trying to determine visible object. Or we might hear about feeling, and try to check what is feeling now. Or when we are angry, we might assume that there is dosa to be experienced intentionally at this moment. That sort of thing. But there are lots of realities other than dosa when there is anger, no rules about what reality is to be object of awareness now. But in our wanting and trying we overreach, momentarily, This is not something to try to stop, it happens due to conditions. But we can be aware of it.

          > -------
          > > Ph: But for now our loved ones are horrifibly real. I say horribly
          > > real because there is so much suffering of worrying about them. And
          > > beautifully real because they are such precious companions. These
          > > days I worry about Naomi getting ill. She works such long hours. I
          > > suffer worrying about our old age together, counting pennies. All
          > > this useless worrying.
          > >
          > -------
          > N: As Acharn says: because of me.
          > As to seeking comfort in understanding and lobha, a fact you mention
          > often, at the moment of understanding there is no lobha, since
          > understanding always goes together with alobha, detachment.


          Ph: Yes, always with alobha. That is the key. A *big* key. People who reject abhidhamma can get around this and decide that their practice can be rooted in wanting, without problem. (Maybe they can claim kusala chanda, wishful thinking.) But for those who accept that the Dhamma is very deep, there can be no cavalier attitutude towards lobha ditthi in practice. That leaves out 99.99% of Buddhists...


          So to coclude my participation in this thread, I would say Abhidhamma is not in the book only when sati is aware of a reality witout attachment. If life is being experienced in Abhidhamma terms on a regular and predictable basis, I would suggest that a lot of lobha will also be there and that it is not bhavana, because bhavana must be kusala.

          Little by little by little, that is the only way.

          Thanks also re the sakkaya ditthi explanations.


          Phil
        • sarah
          Dear Phil, ... .... S: Yes, it is enough when understanding arises now. Just that which is seen, just the reality which sees it! That s all. Actually, very
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 27, 2013
            Dear Phil,

            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:

            > Always refreshing to hear Ajahn talk (Hin Hua) about seeing and visible object, no need to explain what it is, just understand it. Visible object now. Seeing now.
            >
            > "Is that enough for understanding to develop?"
            ....
            S: Yes, it is enough when understanding arises now. Just that which is seen, just the reality which sees it! That's all. Actually, very simple and yet, so subtle, because Self always gets in the way, wanting to 'do' something, wanting to ask a 'how?' or 'what?' or look for a short-cut which always turns out to be such a long-cut!

            Just visible object now appearing. Just seeing now which sees it. That's all!

            Metta

            Sarah
            =====
          • sarah
            Dear Lukas, ... ... S: Well said. ... .... S: Yes, always I would like ..... always wanting something for oneself. So more clinging, less understanding at
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 27, 2013
              Dear Lukas,

              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:

              > I think it all must be very natural, like daily life. Right understanding, not different than daily life.
              ...
              S: Well said.
              ...

              > L: I asked recently via internet. Understanding doesnt come even I would like to understand. Acharn repeated: 'I would like to'. She added later: 'Right understanding cannot attached to anything'.
              ....
              S: Yes, always "I would like"..... always wanting something for oneself. So more clinging, less understanding at such times...

              Metta

              Sarah
              ====
            • philip
              Hi Sarah ... It is enough, if left alone, but so many accumulated kilesa that condition the demanding of more from understanding,the needing of more. As Nina
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 27, 2013
                Hi Sarah

                > S: Yes, it is enough when understanding arises now. Just that which is seen, just the reality which sees it! That's all. Actually, very simple and yet, so subtle, because Self always gets in the way, wanting to 'do' something, wanting to ask a 'how?' or 'what?' or look for a short-cut which always turns out to be such a long-cut!
                >
                > Just visible object now appearing. Just seeing now which sees it. That's all!
                >

                It is enough, if left alone, but so many accumulated kilesa that condition the demanding of more from understanding,the needing of more. As Nina pointed out, I mention the possibility/probability that we seek comfort from Dhamma. I am in that situation at the moment. Went to see the film Amour, about the elderly couple going through the "indignities" of old age, illness and death together. It was too soon after seeing my mother's last hardships, and too close to my recurring worries about what is to come for Naomi and I.

                Only Nama and rupa, Ven Dhammadaro talks about how people can say this with confidence, saddha. If there is saddha, understanding must be kusala, therefore with alobha. Like all kusala, saddha is occasional, arising due to conditions. I am grateful to have friends who speak of the true Dhamma. No feelgood falseties of the kind propagated by Mahayana (in Japan at least.)

                Only Nama and rupa, with a capital N because this damn phone won't allow me to write it otherwise.

                Phil
              • sarah
                Hi Phil, ... ... S: I also watched in on my flight here from Sydney (but the end got chopped off by arrival announcements!). Whatever happens, just dhammas,
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 2, 2013
                  Hi Phil,

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:

                  > >S: Just visible object now appearing. Just seeing now which sees it. That's all!
                  ...
                  >P: It is enough, if left alone, but so many accumulated kilesa that condition the demanding of more from understanding,the needing of more. As Nina pointed out, I mention the possibility/probability that we seek comfort from Dhamma. I am in that situation at the moment. Went to see the film Amour, about the elderly couple going through the "indignities" of old age, illness and death together. It was too soon after seeing my mother's last hardships, and too close to my recurring worries about what is to come for Naomi and I.
                  ...
                  S: I also watched in on my flight here from Sydney (but the end got chopped off by arrival announcements!). Whatever happens, just dhammas, just very ordinary, as Ajahn Sujin would say. Yes, not for everyone, but we never know when sati and panna will arise unexpectedly. Anytime at all.
                  ...
                  >
                  > Only Nama and rupa, Ven Dhammadaro talks about how people can say this with confidence, saddha. If there is saddha, understanding must be kusala, therefore with alobha. Like all kusala, saddha is occasional, arising due to conditions. I am grateful to have friends who speak of the true Dhamma. No feelgood falseties of the kind propagated by Mahayana (in Japan at least.)
                  >
                  > Only Nama and rupa, with a capital N because this damn phone won't allow me to write it otherwise.
                  ....
                  S: Yes, only nama and rupa, even when cursing about the phone:-))

                  Always back to this moment, whatever is conditioned now is real and can be known.

                  Any chance of joining us, Annie & Lan in KK beg June?

                  Metta

                  Sarah
                  =====
                • philip
                  Hi Sarah ... We can say this with any variety of dhammas arising, any variety of degrees of understanding, saddha and other kusala factors. Of course we are
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 3, 2013
                    Hi Sarah

                    > ....
                    > S: Yes, only nama and rupa,

                    We can say this with any variety of dhammas arising, any variety of degrees of understanding, saddha and other kusala factors. Of course we are more likely to say it with akusala, moments of kusala are very rare. But if it is akusala to say "only nama and rupa" without real undestanding and with clinging, so be it. At least we are not falling into really serious wrong practices.


                    > Always back to this moment, whatever is conditioned now is real and can be known.

                    I like that "real and can be known." I like it. Lobha. And perhaps in there a moment of understanding arising with alobha, but that is not likely to be an object of understanding itself, as far as I ... understand.


                    > Any chance of joining us, Annie & Lan in KK beg June?


                    I'm afraid not, hopefully another KK someday. For now extra holiday time must be reserved for another bereavment trip, which lurks somewhere in the not distant future...

                    Thanks as always for the great recordings.


                    Phil
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