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Question on List of Factors in Dependent Origination by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

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  • antony272b2
    ...here is a list of these factors — enough to give a general sense of the shape of dependent co-arising, and to show how unwieldy it can seem. The factors
    Message 1 of 7 , Mar 4 11:36 AM
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      "...here is a list of these factors — enough to give a general sense of the shape of dependent co-arising, and to show how unwieldy it can seem. The factors will be explained in more detail in the body of the book. Here they are numbered starting with the most fundamental factor, ignorance, for ignorance is the most strategic factor in causing the other factors to contribute to stress.

      1) Ignorance: not seeing things in terms of the four noble truths of stress, its origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation.

      2) Fabrication: the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind.
      These processes are of three sorts:
      a) bodily fabrication: the in-and-out breath**,
      b) verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation, and
      c) mental fabrication: feeling (feeling tones of pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain) and perception (the mental labels applied to the objects of the senses for the purpose of memory and recognition).

      3) Consciousness at the six sense media: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect.

      4) Name-and-form: mental and physical phenomena.
      Mental phenomena include:
      a) feeling,
      b) perception,
      c) intention,
      d) contact, and
      e) attention.
      Physical phenomena include the four great elements — the properties constituting the kinetic sense of the body — and any physical phenomenon derived from them:
      f) earth (solidity),
      g) water (liquidity),
      h) wind (energy and motion), and
      i) fire (warmth).

      5) The six internal sense media: the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and intellect.

      6) Contact at the six sense media. Contact happens when a sense organ meets with a sense object —for example, the eye meets with a form — conditioning an act of consciousness at that sense organ. The meeting of all three — the sense organ, the object, and the act of consciousness — counts as contact.

      7) Feeling based on contact at the six sense media.

      8) Craving for the objects of the six sense media. This craving can focus on any of the six sense media, and can take any of three forms:
      a) sensuality-craving (craving for sensual plans and resolves),
      b) becoming-craving (craving to assume an identity in a world of
      experience), and
      c) non-becoming-craving (craving for the end of an identity in a world of experience).

      9) Clinging — passion and delight — focused on the five aggregates of form, feeling, perception, fabrication, and consciousness. This clinging can take any of four forms:
      a) sensuality-clinging,
      b) view-clinging,
      c) habit-and-practice-clinging, and
      d) doctrine-of-self-clinging.

      10) Becoming on any of three levels:
      a) the level of sensuality,
      b) the level of form, and
      c) the level of formlessness.

      11) Birth: the actual assumption of an identity on any of these three levels.

      12) The aging-and-death of that identity, with its attendant sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, and despair.

      Even a cursory glance over these twelve factors will show two of the major ways in which dependent co-arising is an unwieldy topic: (1) The factors seem to fit in different contexts and (2) many of the sub-factors are repeated at seemingly random intervals in the list."
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/shapeofsuffering.pdf
      From: The Shape of Suffering: A Study of Dependent Co-arising
      by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

      ** Antony: According to Bhikkhu Bodhi bodily fabrication is more than just the in-and-out breath, that there are more than a dozen types of bodily fabrication (wholesome and unwholesome volition) in his Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (CMA). I don't have a copy of CMA at the moment. Could someone elaborate?

      Thanks / Antony.
    • Lukas
      Hi Antony, ... L: The paali is from Vibhangapaali, the second book of abhidhamma. On Dependent origination. Suttanta classification: Tattha katame
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 4 11:29 PM
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        Hi Antony,

        > 2) Fabrication: the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind.
        > These processes are of three sorts:
        > a) bodily fabrication: the in-and-out breath**,
        > b) verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation, and
        > c) mental fabrication: feeling (feeling tones of pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain) and perception (the mental labels applied to the objects of the senses for the purpose of memory and recognition).

        L: The paali is from Vibhangapaali, the second book of abhidhamma. On Dependent origination. Suttanta classification:

        Tattha katame avijjaapaccayaa sankhaaraa? (In this what is avijja conditions acitivities, sankhara?)
        Pu~n~naabhisankhaaro, apu~n~naabhisankhaaro, aane~njaabhisankhaaro, kaayasankhaaro, vacisankhaaro, cittasankhaaro. (Activity of merit, activity on non-merit, unshakable activity, Bodily activity, verbal activity, mental activity)

        Tattha katamo pu~n~naabhisankhaaro? Kusalaa cetanaa kaamaavacaraa ruupaavacaraa daanamayaa silamayaa bhaavanaamayaa – aya.m vuccati ‘‘pu~n~naabhisankhaaro’’. (Here what is activity of merit? Any intention that is kusala of level of sensous plane and form plane, included in dana, sila nd bhavana. This is called activity of merit)

        Tattha katamo apu~n~naabhisankhaaro? Akusalaa cetanaa kaamaavacaraa – aya.m vuccati ‘‘apu~n~naabhisankhaaro’’.
        (Here what is activity of non-merit? Any akusala intention of the level of sensous plane - This was told to be activities of non-merit)

        Tattha katamo aane~njaabhisankhaaro? Kusalaa cetanaa arupaavacaraa – aya.m vuccati ‘‘aane~njaabhisankhaaro’’.
        (Here what is unshakable activity? Any kusala intention of the formless plane - this was told to be unshakeable activity)

        Tattha katamo kaayasankhaaro? Kaayasa~ncetanaa kaayasankhaaro, vacisa~ncetana vacisankhaaro, manosa~ncetanaa cittasankhaaro. Ime vuccanti ‘‘avijjaapaccayaa sankhaaraa’’.
        (Here what is bodily activity? Any Bodily intentions are bodily activity, Any speech intentions are speech activity, any mind intentions are mental activity. This was told to be ignorance conditions sankhara or becouse of ignorance activities comes to be).

        L: I did this translation, but this may have mistakes. sankharas comes to be because of ignorance. Sankharas can be translated, as formations, kamma-formations, activities. This all that can produce result in form of vipaka. First 3 are activity of merit, of non-merit and unshakeable. This are any intentions that can produce its result of different level. First one is kamavacara plane and ruupavacaraplane, second ony kamavacaraplane and 3rd in arupavacaraplane. Than we have bodily activities or formations, that are any acts done by body. Speech activities, any kamma performed through speech and mind activity that are any kammas performed through mind, more subtle i think than speech and bodily kamma. This all refers to the intention cetana that can perform kamma, and have different result later one. I think we can tell 3 are said to bring result in different planes and 3 are just kammas performed through body, speech and mind. In all this is 6. ANy intentions that does not bring result are not included in activities, since they do not condition vi~n~nana(that is vipaka) later on.

        Best wishes
        Lukas
      • Lukas
        Hi again Antony, You can see that in the whole paticcasamupada, there is nowhere a Self, that do this or experience anything. There are merely different
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 4 11:45 PM
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          Hi again Antony,

          You can see that in the whole paticcasamupada, there is nowhere a Self, that do this or experience anything. There are merely different dhammas. Like kayasankhara, vacisankhara and cittasankhara. This 3 are just any vipakadhammadhamma(this dhammas that can bring a result in form of vipaka). You can see that what acts and perform different acts is just a kayasnkharas, vacisankharas and cittasankharas. Nowhere a Self. Just kayasankharas, a specific dhammas that perform deeds through body. Vaci sankaharas, dhammas that form a speech and perform deeds through speech that later bring result and mental sankharas that acts through berely mind. Nowhere a self, just dhammas, called formations, sankharas. The prevailing one is cetana sankhara khandha.

          Best wishes
          Lukas

          >L: ANy intentions that does not bring result are not included in activities, since they do not condition vi~n~nana(that is vipaka) later on.
        • Lukas
          Hi again Antony, In the Foundation, the last day, we had meeting with Than Ajahn. This was my last day. Tam and Mai were there also. And I asked weather kusala
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 4 11:53 PM
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            Hi again Antony,

            In the Foundation, the last day, we had meeting with Than Ajahn. This was my last day. Tam and Mai were there also. And I asked weather kusala and akusala kammapatha. The deeds performed by body, speech and mind can be known, especiall the bad ones. Ajahn told yes, panna can know anything. And what is akusalakammapattha? she asked. This is intention, cetana she added.
            So nowhere a Self. Just different activities to be known.

            Best wishes
            Lukas

            > You can see that in the whole paticcasamupada, there is nowhere a Self, that do this or experience anything. There are merely different dhammas. Like kayasankhara, vacisankhara and cittasankhara. This 3 are just any vipakadhammadhamma(this dhammas that can bring a result in form of vipaka). You can see that what acts and perform different acts is just a kayasnkharas, vacisankharas and cittasankharas. Nowhere a Self. Just kayasankharas, a specific dhammas that perform deeds through body. Vaci sankaharas, dhammas that form a speech and perform deeds through speech that later bring result and mental sankharas that acts through berely mind. Nowhere a self, just dhammas, called formations, sankharas. The prevailing one is cetana sankhara khandha.
          • ptaus1
            Hi Anthony, ... CMA can be read online on google books: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover Best wishes pt
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 5 10:29 PM
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              Hi Anthony,


              > A: ... in his Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (CMA). I don't have a copy of CMA at the moment. Could someone elaborate?



              CMA can be read online on google books:

              http://books.google.com.au/books?id=hxopJgv85y4C&printsec=frontcover

              Best wishes
              pt
            • jonoabb
              Hi Antony ... J: Both BB s CMA and Nyanatiloka s Buddhist Dictionary explain the second factor of DO (i.e., sankhara ) as meaning the cetana that is
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 6 8:35 PM
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                Hi Antony

                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "antony272b2" <antony272b@...> wrote:
                >
                > "...here is a list of these factors — enough to give a general sense of the shape of dependent co-arising, and to show how unwieldy it can seem. The factors will be explained in more detail in the body of the book. Here they are numbered starting with the most fundamental factor, ignorance, for ignorance is the most strategic factor in causing the other factors to contribute to stress.
                >
                > 1) Ignorance: not seeing things in terms of the four noble truths of stress, its origination, its cessation, and the path to its cessation.
                >
                > 2) Fabrication: the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind.
                > These processes are of three sorts:
                > a) bodily fabrication: the in-and-out breath**,
                > b) verbal fabrication: directed thought and evaluation, and
                > c) mental fabrication: feeling (feeling tones of pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain) and perception (the mental labels applied to the objects of the senses for the purpose of memory and recognition).
                > ...
                > ** Antony: According to Bhikkhu Bodhi bodily fabrication is more than just the in-and-out breath, that there are more than a dozen types of bodily fabrication (wholesome and unwholesome volition) in his Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (CMA). I don't have a copy of CMA at the moment. Could someone elaborate?
                > ===============

                J: Both BB's CMA and Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary explain the second factor of DO (i.e., 'sankhara') as meaning the cetana that is associated with wholesome and unwholesome kamma.

                The explanation given by TB differs from this (it is a different meaning of sankhara as used in the texts).

                Hope this helps.

                Jon
              • sarah
                Hi Lukas & Antony, ... S: You gave a good translation and explanation about the lines Antony quoted in the context of D.O. on kayasankhara etc. The
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 11 1:02 AM
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                  Hi Lukas & Antony,

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:

                  > L: The paali is from Vibhangapaali, the second book of abhidhamma. On Dependent origination. Suttanta classification:
                  <...>
                  S: You gave a good translation and explanation about the lines Antony quoted in the context of D.O. on kayasankhara etc.

                  The commentary to the Vibhanga (Sammohavinodani, transl as 'Dispeller') further elaborates:

                  " 'Tattha katamo kaayasa'nkhaaro? Kaayasa~ncetanaa' ('Herein, which is the bodily formation? Bodily volition') and so on. Herein kaayasa~ncetanaa ('bodily volition') is the round twenty volitions, namely the eight profitable volitions and the twelve unprofitable volitions of the sense sphere proceeding from the body door by arousing bodily intimation. It is also permissible to say that it is the twenty profitable and unprofitable volitions arisen when they arrive at taking, seizing and moving in the body door (cf MA ii 364ff).

                  " 'Vaciisa~ncetanaa' ('verbal volition') is the twenty volitions proceeding from the speech door by arousing verbal intimation. It is also permissible to say that it is the twenty volitions arisen when they arrive at motion of the jaw which is speech utterance in the speech door (cf. MA ii 364ff).....

                  " 'Manosa~ncetanaa ('mental volition') is all the 29 volitions having arisen in the mind door without arousing either [bodily or verbal] intimation. Thus the Blessed One taught the doors for accumulation of kamma [showing] that the limitless beings in the limitless world spheres accumulate their profitable and unprofitable kamma by means of these three doors."

                  *****

                  Metta

                  Sarah
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