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Re: [dsg] Vipassanaa (DT 888 ) to Htoo.

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  • htoonaing@ymail.com
    ... N: But first there is a beginning of developing insight as you will agree. ... Htoo: I agree. ... Nina: As to precepts, this reminds me of something. Some
    Message 1 of 194 , Feb 16, 2013
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      > Vipassanaa is the path that bridges puthujjana and sotapanna,
      > sotapanna and sakadaagaamii, sakadaagaamii and anaagaamii' and
      > 'anaagaamii and arahat. At least precepts have to be kept well.
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      N: But first there is a beginning of developing insight as you will
      agree.
      --------------------------------------------
      Htoo: I agree.
      -----------------------------------------------
      Nina: As to precepts, this reminds me of something. Some people stress that first siila must be observed, then samatha developed, and only then vipassanaa can be developed. I mention this, because I often hear this.
      -------------------------------------------
      Htoo: Saariputta and Pu.n.na were speaking. The example was there were 7 chariots. The king first rode in chariot 1 and then 2 and so on. After declining from 7th chariot the king arrived Saavatthi. These 7 were referred to 7 visuddhi or 7 purifications. The first was siila, the second was samaadhi and 3rd to 7th were pa~n~naa.
      I understand this is just for example. When the wheel has to roll all 8 spokes have to participate. Dhammacakka pavattana sutta.
      -------------------------------------------
      Nina:

      When one reads some texts it seems that there has to be síla first,
      then concentration and then paññå. We discussed this with Acharn
      Sujin who said: "Can síla and samådhi be fully developed without paññå?"
      ---------------------------------------------------
      Htoo: This will depend on individuals. Aasayaanusaya only lies in Sammaasambuddha. No one knows individual maturity. So non-sammaasambuddha teachers (who attain enlightenment) teach for individuals for their(trainees) benefit.
      When study siila panna approaches even before real taking of or practising of siila. Siila and panna have to go hand in hand. Also samaadhi and panna have to go hand in hand. And samaadhi and siila also have to go hand in hand.
      About 1000 years after the Buddha monks on Sirilankaa especially abide vinaya. Just before dying what he recollected was that his vinaya is pure. Then piiti arise. Piiti was contemplated and then new panna which never arisen before arose and attained enlightenment.
      ------------------------------------------------------
      Nina:

      The sotåpanna has fully developed síla, he cannot transgress the five precepts nor commit akusala kamma leading to an unhappy rebirth.
      -----------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      :) Pro-sotapannaa have to fulfill siila to the extend that it becomes pure. Completeness is associated with arising of path-consciousness. No one know when path-consciousness will arise in an individual except the Buddha. So trainee (sikkha) has to fulfill siila first. Path-consciousness can only arise once. Before this time siila must be pure even though there is still anusaya.
      ------------------------------------------------------
      Nina:

      The anågåmi has fully developed calm, he has eradicated all clinging to sense pleasures. Síla and samådhi become fully developed by paññå.
      ---------------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      Feeling or release associates with departure from realm of sensual sphere. If there is no more craving on sense the individual becomes calm and there is no more anger and sexuality. Again this is just after arising of anaagaami magga citta or non-return-path-consciousness.
      ---------------------------------------------------
      Nina:

      We have to investigate whether the text refers to the lokuttara
      cittas. See the following:
      ---------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      I have discussed lokuttaraa cittas in citta sections of dhamma threads. In this post is to step on the path leading to nibbaana. A journey starts from a point and ends at a point. Here Journey-to-Nibbaana is the journey. End point is nibbaana. Starting point is anywhere in the samsaraa but at the time of interest in nibbaana. This is the very earlier point to start nibbaana journey.
      ------------------------------------------------------
      Nina:

      We read in the Commentary to the Mahåparinibbånasutta:

      "Such and such is síla (virtue), meaning, it is indeed síla, síla to
      that extent; here it is síla which are the four purities of síla.
      Samådhi is concentration. Wisdom should be understood as insight
      wisdom (vipassanå).
      ---------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      This atthakathaa is explanation and not the path itself. 4 purities of siila are paatimokkhasamvara siila, indriyasamvara siila, aajiivapaarisuddhi siila and paccayasannissia siila. The first is 227 rules (in summary_where there are more than 90;000,000,000 precepts) abiding. The second one is like vipassanaa meditation that is purity at 6 doors. The third one is related to living. And the fourth one is also related to living but everyday living.
      -----------------------------------------------------
      Nina:

      As to the words, when it is fully developed by síla, this means, when he has abided in that síla etc., these produce concentration
      accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness; when
      this is fully developed by that síla it is of great fruit and of
      great benefit.
      When he has abided in this concentration, they produce wisdom
      accompanying the path-consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and
      this, when it is fully developed by this concentration, is of great
      fruit, of great benefit.
      When he has abided in this wisdom, they produce the path-
      consciousness and fruition-consciousness, and thus when it is fully
      developed by this (wisdom) he is completely freed from the intoxicants."
      Thus, when we read about full development this pertains to lokuttara
      cittas arising at the different stages of enlightenment.
      --------------------------------------------------------
      Htoo:

      I have written in the previous DT series almost all about theory. This post is initiation of of real walking the path. That is to start the Journey-to-Nibbaana.

      May you be well and happy,

      With Unlimited Metta,

      Htoo Naing
    • htoonaing@ymail.com
      Sukin wrote: Can you please explain to me, how the hindrances act as hindrances to the arising and development of samma ditthi? ... Htoo: Niivara.nas are
      Message 194 of 194 , Aug 26, 2013
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        Sukin wrote:

        Can you please explain to me, how the hindrances act as hindrances to the arising and development of samma ditthi?
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        Niivara.nas are akusala. Akusala will not lead to sammaa-di.t.thi. When niivara.nas come they proliferate and there will be more and more akusala. These akusala may lead to pariyu.t.thaana to viitikkama kilesaa and then duccarita will arise. Duccarita break siila and then leads to wrong path.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        After you do this, can you also tell me where "Jahna practice" fits into this?
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        Jhaana cittas are ruupa-kusala-jhaana-cittas and aruupa-kusala-jhaana cittas. They are tihetuka cittas. They do have pa~n~nindriya cetasika as their component. When wild mind can well be put under control of jhaana it is very easy to lead higher citta like anuttara cittas and vimutta cittas. Before entering jhaana there is contemplation. At emerging jhaana there also is contemplation. Contemplation of what. Contemplation on dhammas. What dhammas? Arising dhammas and arisen dhammas. As jhaana-cittas have just arisen these jhaana cittas and jhaana cetasikas are contemplated. There is no control there is on one there is subject there is no puggala but arising of kaamaavacara-mahaakusala-javana-cittas cognizing on jhaana cittas, jhaana cetasikas and then the general makers of these dhammas called anicca, dukkha, anatta become evident.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        I mean, how a citta (with accompanying cetasikas) which functions to suppress the hindrances with the aim to maintain concentration,
        influences the next citta (with accompanying cetasikas) which performs a totally different function, namely understanding the nature of a nama or rupa dhamma?
        ---------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        You are tracking theoretical dreaming and not so practical. Pa~n~na suppress niivara.na. Pa~n~naa maintain samaadhi. Pa~n~naa influences the next cittas. Pa~n~na see(realize or parivajjhati) naama or ruupa and it changes its name as pa.tivedha. This only happen at the time of magga kha.na.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        Panna is sankhara, therefore accumulates with each arsing. It is
        illogical and strange then, to suggest that the hindrances are not
        hindrances to lower levels of panna, but are so to higher levels.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        The angle of view might cover your eyes not to see things as they really are.

        For the beginners there always are akusala mixed with kusala in the process of vipassanaa. If akusalas are not known then akusala will not be eradicated.

        But when samaadhi has to enter the power of indriya, bala, bojjha`nga and magga`nga then niivara.nas do hinder arising of magga.
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Sukin:

        Now we can talk about "doing" again.

        Is the *doing* of meditation any more or less a "doing" than say, me
        typing this message or you reading it? If so, by virtue of which
        particular dhamma or set of dhammas this is? What exactly is
        "development" and how is that a *doing*?
        ----------------------------------------------------------------------
        Htoo:

        There are actions. Verbs represent 'actions'.

        There are

        1. verb-to-be
        2. verb-to-have
        3. verb-to-do

        Typing is *doing*. It is not 'is/be' it is not 'have'. But it is *doing*.

        Reading is not 'being' not 'having'. It is *doing*

        Developing exactly is "growing in power, growing in accumulation, growing in everything."

        "Yaadisa.m vapate biija.m, taadisa.m harate phala.m"

        With Metta,

        Htoo Naing
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