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Re: [dsg] Re: Reminder.

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  • Tam Bach
      Thank you Sarah and Jagkrit, very hepful ! Metta, Tam B   Dear Jagkrit & friends, ... .... S: All day there is clinging to sense objects, feelings, other
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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      Thank you Sarah and Jagkrit, very hepful !

      Metta,
      Tam B



       
      Dear Jagkrit & friends,

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote:
      >....Than Acharn gave some reminder that:
      >
      > "Everything happens to be forgotten"
      >
      > Nina, Sarah, John and friends would you like to elaborate more about this?
      ....
      S: All day there is clinging to sense objects, feelings, other dhammas and concepts on account of them. Everything we find so important and precious and cling to so dearly will all be forgotten.

      Can we remember the taste of the food yesterday that seemed so special at the time? Can we remember the visible object that was seen when we first woke up? Can we remember the sound of the voice of a dear friend who spoke to us a little while ago?

      All conditioned dhammas arise and fall instantly, to be completely forgotten. All the stories that are fondly recalled now about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched will be completely forgotten very soon.

      The only thing of any value at all during this life is the development of understanding. Without such understanding, there is just the being born, experiencing all sorts of realities and concepts, all to be forgotten by the end of life if not before.

      Can we remember our husband/wife, family members, dear ones from the last life? Next life it'll be the same - all that is dear now will be unknown. There will be new friends, new dear ones, new objects of attachment, over and over again.

      Don't be heedless! Develop understanding now! Understanding dhammas as anatta beginning now!

      Metta

      Sarah
      ====




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jagkrit2012
      Dear Sarah, Nina, Tam and friends ... JJ: Thank you very much Sarah for your further explanation. This is very useful for reminder. ============= JJ: And to
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 8, 2013
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        Dear Sarah, Nina, Tam and friends


        > >....Than Acharn gave some reminder that:
        > >
        > > "Everything happens to be forgotten"

        > S: ......All conditioned dhammas arise and fall instantly, to be completely forgotten. All the stories that are fondly recalled now about what is seen, heard, smelt, tasted and touched will be completely forgotten very soon.
        ........
        > Don't be heedless! Develop understanding now! Understanding dhammas as anatta beginning now!

        JJ: Thank you very much Sarah for your further explanation. This is very useful for reminder.

        =============

        JJ: And to answer Nina about where we had the discussion. We were invited by one of our dhamma friend in Rajchaburi about 2 hours from Bangkok. She owns a steak restaurant and a farm there. She arranged buses and lunch for almost 100 dhamma friends from Bangkok with her own budget. We had one day dhamma discussion which was very good. There are a lot of interesting new discussion like:

        When we listen to dhamma, how we are going to do with our daily life and work? How we are going react toward finding more money for our living or following our career prosperity. Do we have to get away from rich and famous? That is lobha, isn't it? What we should do?

        May be Sarah, Nina and friends would like to inject right thought to this question. I'm interested to here more.

        Thank you and anumodhana

        Jagkrit
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Jagkrit, I have been to Rachaburi, long ago. Very nice. ... N: Do not change your lifestyle, we have to come ot know our own accumulations. Everything
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 8, 2013
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          Dear Jagkrit,
          I have been to Rachaburi, long ago. Very nice.
          Op 8-feb-2013, om 11:08 heeft jagkrit2012 het volgende geschreven:

          > We were invited by one of our dhamma friend in Rajchaburi about 2
          > hours from Bangkok. She owns a steak restaurant and a farm there.
          > She arranged buses and lunch for almost 100 dhamma friends from
          > Bangkok with her own budget. We had one day dhamma discussion which
          > was very good. There are a lot of interesting new discussion like:
          >
          > When we listen to dhamma, how we are going to do with our daily
          > life and work? How we are going react toward finding more money for
          > our living or following our career prosperity. Do we have to get
          > away from rich and famous? That is lobha, isn't it? What we should do?
          -----
          N: Do not change your lifestyle, we have to come ot know our own
          accumulations. Everything should be natural, as Acharn says. We do
          not have to retire from our worldly life, that is unnatural. We
          understand more that having possessions or fame is not our own doing,
          it is conditioned by kamma. Nothing to be proud of. We like it, we
          have lobha, but only the anaagaami has eradicated lobha for sense
          objects. The first thing is: knowing the present reality as only a
          dhamma, and understand more that there is no self who can control
          anything in life. Kusala citta may arise, akusala citta may arise,
          whatever arises is conditioned and beyond control.
          What did Acharn say?

          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • jagkrit2012
          Dear Nina and friends ... JJ: Thank you very much Nina. You point out clearly about doing something unnatural. Than Acharn also explained this question with
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 8, 2013
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            Dear Nina and friends

            > > Q: When we listen to dhamma, how we are going to do with our daily
            > > life and work? How we are going react toward finding more money for
            > > our living or following our career prosperity. Do we have to get
            > > away from rich and famous? That is lobha, isn't it? What we should do?
            > -----
            > N: Do not change your lifestyle, we have to come to know our own
            > accumulations. Everything should be natural, as Acharn says. We do
            > not have to retire from our worldly life, that is unnatural. We
            > understand more that having possessions or fame is not our own doing,
            > it is conditioned by kamma. Nothing to be proud of. We like it, we
            > have lobha, but only the anaagaami has eradicated lobha for sense
            > objects.

            JJ: Thank you very much Nina. You point out clearly about doing something unnatural.

            Than Acharn also explained this question with the word "dhammadaa" (in Thai) or "dhamma taa" (in Pali).

            "Dhamma taa" means being dhamma. Each person lifestyle is according to each person accumulation. And this is dhamma taa or natural.

            Because kusala or akusala arises according to accumulation and condition. If there are accumulation and condition of akusala, no one can stop akusala to arise. This is dhamma taa.

            When one studies dhamma and tries to obtain kusala and avoid akusala by trying to do something without understanding accumulation and condition. Is this dhamma taa? Surely, it is not and in the opposite trying to do something will accumulate more akusala of wrong view about self or sakkaya dhiti.

            ===============

            >N: The first thing is: knowing the present reality as only a
            > dhamma, and understand more that there is no self who can control
            > anything in life. Kusala citta may arise, akusala citta may arise,
            > whatever arises is conditioned and beyond control.

            JJ: Than Acharn also stressed the same fundamental as you mentioned above. And this is always the very first step of understanding dhamma. Not doing or practicing anything unnatural.

            And Then Acharn again said " Dhamma is natural, right now!"

            Thank you and anumodhana

            Jagkrit
          • sarah
            Hi Jagkrit, ... ... S: Seems the questions are all about me - what am I going to do, how am I going to react, what should I do? They indicate there is
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 11, 2013
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              Hi Jagkrit,

              To add a few more comments to Nina's:

              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote:
              >There are a lot of interesting new discussion like:
              >
              > When we listen to dhamma, how we are going to do with our daily life and work? How we are going react toward finding more money for our living or following our career prosperity. Do we have to get away from rich and famous? That is lobha, isn't it? What we should do?
              ...
              S: Seems the questions are all about "me" - what am "I" going to do, how am "I" going to react, what should "I" do?

              They indicate there is no understanding of dhammas, realities and there is the taking of 'myself', various situations, such as work, career, prosperity and so on for being real.

              The more understanding there is that there are only conditioned realities arising and falling away now, such as seeing and visible object, the less inclination there is to think in terms of "what should I do". With more understanding, it becomes clear that this is true, however life unfolds, however rich or poor, whatever our job is.

              If we have the idea that certain work situations or careers or pursuits will be less conducive to the development of understanding, again it indicates a lack of understanding now. The test is always the understanding of the reality appearing now.

              I'm interested to hear more of your comments, too, Jagkrit and others.

              Metta

              Sarah
              =====
            • colette_aube
              Hi Sarah, Aren t you just speaking of DEPENDENT ORIGINATION? You frame your position as though the people/person you re talking to is only conscious of a
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 11, 2013
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                Hi Sarah,

                Aren't you just speaking of DEPENDENT ORIGINATION?

                You frame your position as though the people/person you're talking to is only conscious of a "self" which, in this case, happens to HIM, HIS, "self". I always looked at the Dharma as being a "reflection" in that it helped me to better see, hear, know, my "self" and in that case to better see why there is NO SUCH THING AS A "SELF", which is anatta's meaning i.e. by knowing better what I am I am better able to see the actuality of the Buddha's dharma he presented.

                Now that anatta has been established, we can then re-examine what you were trying to express. It all seems as though you are suggesting something that I've always accepted as fact, that people are too afraid of living and search hopelessly for a "guide" or "user's manual" to tell them WHAT IS and WHAT IS NOT. Anatta is one huge thing to grasp, let alone to conceive within "consciousness".

                This post, your post initiating my reply, is all part of a learning and experiencing PROCESS, much like a PURIFICATION process in TANTRA. Thus I arrive at my focus, which is FLOW in the nadis through the chakras. Consciousness exists in three nadis, channels, and you are forcing the MIDDLE NADI, Sushumna, to be that of the "self/anatta" i.e. nama/rupa. I just, IMO, do not like the "flow" in the sushumna as having anything to do with the "self/anatta"

                Pardon me, I just taught myself something and wonder if my bothering the discussion is worth the effort (zen). Interesting. The nadis are rather "specific" about "flows" aren't they?

                Pardon me for bothering.

                toodles,
                colette

                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" wrote:
                <...>
                > S: Seems the questions are all about "me" - what am "I" going to do, how am "I" going to react, what should "I" do?
                >
                > They indicate there is no understanding of dhammas, realities and there is the taking of 'myself', various situations, such as work, career, prosperity and so on for being real.
                >
                > The more understanding there is that there are only conditioned realities arising and falling away now, such as seeing and visible object, the less inclination there is to think in terms of "what should I do". With more understanding, it becomes clear that this is true, however life unfolds, however rich or poor, whatever our job is.
                >
                > If we have the idea that certain work situations or careers or pursuits will be less conducive to the development of understanding, again it indicates a lack of understanding now. The test is always the understanding of the reality appearing now.
                <...>
              • jagkrit2012
                Dear Sarah and all ... JJ: As always of everyone: idea. And we can t help it. But as you say thinking to do something conducive to panna, it is again get away
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 11, 2013
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                  Dear Sarah and all

                  > S: If we have the idea that certain work situations or careers or pursuits will be less conducive to the development of understanding, again it indicates a lack of understanding now. The test is always the understanding of the reality appearing now.

                  JJ: As always of everyone: idea. And we can't help it. But as you say thinking to do something conducive to panna, it is again get away from understanding.

                  In Rajchaburi, Than Acharn said "Choose to do something is only thinking". I consider more on this quote. It is exactly what it is. We've chosen or decided to do something but what happens, whether according to what we chose or not, is different. What happens is reality which arises according to set of conditions not choosing.

                  Then who can choose?

                  Thank you and anumodhana

                  jagkrit
                • sarah
                  Dear Jagkrit, ... .... S: I ve always appreciated her great emphasis on dhammadaa ....living naturally, understanding present realities. Metta Sarah ====
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 12, 2013
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                    Dear Jagkrit,

                    You explained the meaning of "dhammadaa" (naurally), well:

                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" wrote:

                    > JJ:
                    > Than Acharn also explained this question with the word "dhammadaa" (in Thai) or "dhamma taa" (in Pali).
                    >
                    > "Dhamma taa" means being dhamma. Each person lifestyle is according to each person accumulation. And this is dhamma taa or natural.
                    >
                    > Because kusala or akusala arises according to accumulation and condition. If there are accumulation and condition of akusala, no one can stop akusala to arise. This is dhamma taa.
                    >
                    > When one studies dhamma and tries to obtain kusala and avoid akusala by trying to do something without understanding accumulation and condition. Is this dhamma taa? Surely, it is not and in the opposite trying to do something will accumulate more akusala of wrong view about self or sakkaya dhiti.
                    ....

                    S: I've always appreciated her great emphasis on "dhammadaa"....living naturally, understanding present realities.

                    Metta

                    Sarah
                    ====
                  • jagkrit2012
                    Dear Sarah and all ... JJ: Yes, me too. Because understanding dhammadaa is not dhammadaa (naturally not easy to understand, something like: common sense is
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 13, 2013
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                      Dear Sarah and all

                      > S: I've always appreciated her great emphasis on "dhammadaa"....living naturally, understanding present realities.

                      JJ: Yes, me too. Because understanding dhammadaa is not dhammadaa (naturally not easy to understand, something like: common sense is not common)

                      And a lot of reminders and emphasises have to be taken for consideration.

                      Thank you and anumodhana

                      Jagkrit
                    • Lukas
                      Dear Jagkrit, For example for me, mana(conceit) is natural. I dont need to do anything special for mana to arise. It will find its object itself. Best wishes
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 14, 2013
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                        Dear Jagkrit,

                        For example for me, mana(conceit) is natural. I dont need to do anything special for mana to arise. It will find its object itself.

                        Best wishes
                        Lukas

                        > > S: I've always appreciated her great emphasis on "dhammadaa"....living naturally, understanding present realities.
                        >
                        > JJ: Yes, me too. Because understanding dhammadaa is not dhammadaa (naturally not easy to understand, something like: common sense is not common)
                        >
                        > And a lot of reminders and emphasises have to be taken for consideration.
                        >
                        > Thank you and anumodhana
                        >
                        > Jagkrit
                        >
                      • jagkrit2012
                        Dear Lukas ... JJ: Yes, same to me. Mana always finds it way to arise without notice all the time. It is so natural as it is. Unless keeping reminder of Than
                        Message 11 of 24 , Feb 14, 2013
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                          Dear Lukas

                          > L: For example for me, mana(conceit) is natural. I dont need to do anything special for mana to arise. It will find its object itself.

                          JJ: Yes, same to me. Mana always finds it way to arise without notice all the time. It is so natural as it is.

                          Unless keeping reminder of Than Acharn to you (during fare well at Warsaw airport): "Remember, visible object!"

                          When seeing sees visible object, mana seems to lose its way.

                          Anumodhana

                          Jagkrit
                        • sarah
                          Dear Jagkrit, ... ... S: With or without wrong understanding. ... ... S: No one at all. As you say, just realities arising according to various conditions. AN
                          Message 12 of 24 , Feb 16, 2013
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                            Dear Jagkrit,

                            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:

                            > In Rajchaburi, Than Acharn said "Choose to do something is only thinking".
                            ...
                            S: With or without wrong understanding.
                            ...
                            >I consider more on this quote. It is exactly what it is. We've chosen or decided to do something but what happens, whether according to what we chose or not, is different. What happens is reality which arises according to set of conditions not choosing.
                            >
                            > Then who can choose?
                            ...
                            S: No one at all. As you say, just realities arising according to various conditions.

                            AN VII, 67 Mental Development (1) (Bodhi transl)

                            “Monks, although a monk who does not apply himself to the meditative
                            development of his mind may wish, "Oh, that my mind might be
                            freed from the taints by non-clinging!", yet his mind will not be freed.
                            For what reason? "Because he has not developed his mind,"
                            one has to say. Not developed it in what? In the four foundations of
                            mindfulness, the four right kinds of striving, the four bases of
                            success, the five spiritual faculties, the five spiritual powers,
                            the seven factors of enlightenment and the Noble Eightfold Path.”

                            Also, from "Nava Sutta" (The Ship):

                            "Suppose a hen has eight, ten, or twelve eggs: If she doesn't cover them rightly, warm them rightly, or incubate them rightly, then even though this wish may occur to her â€" 'O that my chicks might break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely!' â€" still it is not possible that the chicks will break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely. Why is that? Because the hen has not covered them rightly, warmed them rightly, or incubated them rightly.

                            "In the same way, even though this wish may occur to a monk who dwells without devoting himself to development â€" 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' â€" still his mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From lack of developing, it should be said. Lack of developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path."
                            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.101.than.html

                            Metta

                            Sarah
                            ======
                          • jagkrit2012
                            Dear Sarah ... JJ: Thank you very much for your referring of above suttas. This shows that wish is wish. What we wish happens only because of right condition.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Feb 18, 2013
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                              Dear Sarah

                              > >JJ: Then who can choose?
                              > ...
                              > S: No one at all. As you say, just realities arising according to various conditions.
                              >
                              > AN VII, 67 Mental Development (1) (Bodhi transl)
                              >
                              > “Monks, although a monk who does not apply himself to the meditative
                              > development of his mind may wish, "Oh, that my mind might be
                              > freed from the taints by non-clinging!", yet his mind will not be freed.
                              > For what reason? "Because he has not developed his mind,"
                              > one has to say. Not developed it in what? In the four foundations of
                              > mindfulness, the four right kinds of striving, the four bases of
                              > success, the five spiritual faculties, the five spiritual powers,
                              > the seven factors of enlightenment and the Noble Eightfold Path.”
                              >
                              > Also, from "Nava Sutta" (The Ship):
                              >
                              > "Suppose a hen has eight, ten, or twelve eggs: If she doesn't cover them rightly, warm them rightly, or incubate them rightly, then even though this wish may occur to her â€" 'O that my chicks might break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely!' â€" still it is not possible that the chicks will break through the egg shells with their spiked claws or beaks and hatch out safely. Why is that? Because the hen has not covered them rightly, warmed them rightly, or incubated them rightly.
                              >
                              > "In the same way, even though this wish may occur to a monk who dwells without devoting himself to development â€" 'O that my mind might be released from effluents through lack of clinging!' â€" still his mind is not released from the effluents through lack of clinging. Why is that? From lack of developing, it should be said. Lack of developing what? The four frames of reference, the four right exertions, the four bases of power, the five faculties, the five strengths, the seven factors for Awakening, the noble eightfold path."
                              > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.101.than.html

                              JJ: Thank you very much for your referring of above suttas. This shows that wish is wish. What we wish happens only because of right condition. However, it can't be helped not to wish but when wish arises I could learn and understand it more and not expect too much from that wish.

                              Anumodhana

                              Jagkrit
                            • sarah
                              Dear Jagkrit, ... ... S: Yes, well summarised:-) Wishing is just lobha! Metta Sarah ====
                              Message 14 of 24 , Feb 21, 2013
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                                Dear Jagkrit,

                                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:

                                > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.101.than.html
                                >
                                > JJ: Thank you very much for your referring of above suttas. This shows that wish is wish. What we wish happens only because of right condition. However, it can't be helped not to wish but when wish arises I could learn and understand it more and not expect too much from that wish.
                                ...
                                S: Yes, well summarised:-)

                                Wishing is just lobha!

                                Metta

                                Sarah
                                ====
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