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Re: Emptiness and Analytical practice

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  • sarah
    Hi Pt, ... .... S: OK, all that thinking s gone, never to return. What about now? What is real now? What appears now? There can be right understanding (even if
    Message 1 of 35 , Jan 27, 2013
      Hi Pt,

      You just wrote to Ken H (and i've not read all the posts leading up to this one yet):

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ptaus1" wrote:

      > pt: ... I still feel it is all much worst than just useless. I mean, it's all just thinking, a filter of sorts for rationalising my life. Kind of like 10 years ago I rationalised everything through my theoretical knowledge of science, now I do the same through the new filter of theoretical knowledge of Dhamma. It's still all just thinking, akusala, often with wrong view. No panna anywhere in site, and none of it will lead to more panna.
      ....
      S: OK, all that thinking's gone, never to return.

      What about now? What is real now? What appears now? There can be right understanding (even if just right intellectual understanding) even now. Visible object is seen now, there's thinking about it.....all just dhammas. Understanding now that there are just dhammas, such as seeing and visible object (no Pt to feel sorry for to be found) is kusala. It's the right path. If such understanding is followed by doubt, self-pity, ideas of "my" useless thinking, these are also dhammas that can be known. Even when it's clinging to realities as self, the ditthi can be known. In fact it can only be known when it arises.

      Right understanding has to begin again, begin again.... It's only ignorance which makes it seem useless.

      Perhaps Alberto, Tam or Lukas can add more.
      ...
      <If any panna happens, it's in spite of all the thinking and considering,
      ...
      S: No. If there is not very careful considering about each word we hear/read and careful reflection on dhammas, panna will never arise and develop.
      ...
      >just like in meditation if any panna happens, it is in spite of the meditation effort.
      ...
      S: The wrong effort to try and get results or be aware just leads further down the wrong path. This is why there are right path factors and wrong path factors.
      ...
      >Anyway, I'll leave this now for another vacation, hopefully not any time soon.
      ....
      S: Well, it does prove the point that having free time is not the key to the development of understanding:-) j/k!

      The path is not about 'me' or 'you', but about understanding realities and that means now. It's a real blessing to hear the Dhamma and to have the opportunity to understand realities as not self - the greatest blessing in life. Nothing else matters.

      Will be in Manly next weekend with my mother. Look forward to seeing you sometime!
      Hope you had a good trip too.

      Metta

      Sarah

      p.s For all Bangkok notes de-coders, I made a complete mess of one note which made no sense at the time or as I wrote it. So I clarified the point with A.Sujin yesterday. I had mistakenly heard and written "dhutanga" when in fact the word spoken was " tadanga". More tomorrow.
      =====
    • jonoabb
      Hi Ken and Tony (129110) ... J: Right. The Buddha has clearly said that dhammas do exist -- see SN22:94 Flowers: And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in
      Message 35 of 35 , Feb 21, 2013
        Hi Ken and Tony

        (129110)
        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Ken H" wrote:
        >
        > Hi Jon and Tony,
        >
        > -------
        > >>Tony H: Seeing how things DO exist (i.e. as conventional appearances to the mind in dependence upon their aggregates etc...) also reveals how things don't exist (i.e. their emptiness and illusory nature as dependent related phenomena, mere appearances to the mind.
        > >>
        >
        > > J: In the suttas the Buddha declares that the idea that things do exist and the idea that things don't exist are both views that are not taught by him.
        >
        > > So it is not the function of understanding to see "how things exist" or "don't exist", but rather to see the conditioned, and momentary, nature of dhammas.
        > --------
        >
        > KH: Excuse me for interrupting, but I don't think that was the answer Tony needed to hear. I am sure it is perfectly valid with regard to concepts, but Tony's problem (if I may call it that) is that he thinks dhammas have no existence outside the mind. In other words, he sees them as concepts.
        >
        > The Buddha has clearly said that dhammas do exist (see Useful Posts under "Exists & does not Exist, Emptiness").
        > ===============

        J: Right. The Buddha has clearly said that dhammas do exist -- see SN22:94 Flowers:

        "And what is it, bhikkhus, that the wise in the world agree upon as existing, of which I too say that it exists?
        "Form that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists. Feeling ...Perception...Volitional formations...Consciousness that is impermanent, suffering, and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say that it exists."

        However, when I made my comment about the idea that things do or don't exist, I had in mind the sutta SN12:15:

        "'Everything exists,' this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes the Tathaagata teaches a doctrine of the middle: Conditioned by ignorance are the formations ... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering. But from the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance there comes the cessation of the formations, from the cessation of the formations comes the cessation of consciousness... So there comes about the complete cessation of this entire mass of suffering."
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.wlsh.html

        In his post Tony had talked about the importance of seeing how things do or don't exist. I read him as suggesting that nothing actually exists in any meaningful sense of that word; all is just an appearance to the mind (Tony may like to comment on that).

        Jon
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