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Re: Seeing = Visible object

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  • Ken H
    Hi Robert E, ... ... KH: I agree also, although I have a different understand of what we are talking about. I agree all kinds of kusala development are
    Message 1 of 299 , Jan 16, 2013
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      Hi Robert E,

      <. . .>
      > RE:I have to agree with you, Ken O., that meditation is often cited as part of the practice in texts from sutta to Visudhimagga to commentaries.

      KH: I agree also, although I have a different understand of what we are talking about. I agree all kinds of kusala development are cited in the texts. And that includes jhana, which is developed whenever the conditions for jhana are present.

      > RE: Sometimes it can be confusing when the use of terms like bhavana is uncertain - whether it refers to meditation or natural development.

      KH: Take my word for it :-) The Tipitaka always teaches development that occurs naturally through right understanding. It does not teach the path of an ignorant person who desires to become a wise person.

      > RE: But I think there are many passages where
      it is very clear that the texts are talking about formal meditation. For
      instance, in the Visuddhimagga there is a passage that advises getting a
      meditation teacher when one is ready to learn the techniques of following and
      counting breaths, etc. Those who disagree with this interpretation find some
      other way to say that it is a description rather than a proscription, but I
      personally feel that is really stretching it, when the text is explicit and the
      interpretation tries to take it in a different direction.

      KH: Thanks for your honesty. You see the Visuddhimagga as explicitly teaching a conventional practice. As we know (from the texts) the 8fold Path is a unique practice (There is a path, but no traveller on it), not a conventional one. Therefore, you see the Visuddhimagga as teaching something other than the 8fold Path.

      With a little flexibility you *might* be able to see the matter otherwise.

      Others can, why not you?

      > RE: If this were accepted it could be very interesting to discuss the ways in which
      meditation can take advantage of the understanding of the uncontrolled arising
      of whatever takes place in the moment, and how meditation can be led astray by
      the illusion of control, but I don't think we will get to the point when we can
      discuss such issues within an acceptance of meditation as part of the path that
      the Buddha taught. Not on dsg in any case.

      KH: Sorry, I couldn't follow that last part, but not to worry. Your overall argument is, I think, that meditators can develop right understanding of anatta by believing in a little bit of atta. Just enough atta to make right understanding happen.

      It doesn't work that way!

      Ken H

      PS: Now aren't you glad to be discussing meditation again?
    • sarah
      Hi Howard, ... S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away.
      Message 299 of 299 , Mar 4 10:44 PM
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        Hi Howard,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

        > > S: As Jon wrote in another recent post: "Dukkha is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. As long as there is life in samsara, there is dukkha (even for the arahant).
        > ------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > What does it mean for there to be dukkha FOR the arahant?
        > ------------------------------------

        S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away. Each of these elements is dukkha.
        > >S: "Dukkha is ended only when parinibbana is attained."
        > -------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > If one experiences no dissatisfaction, why should one care whether dhammas are not sources of satisfaction?
        > ---------------------------------------
        S: That's the point. When attachment and ignorance have been eradicated, there is no more caring or searching for satisfaction, no more conditions for rebirth. The job is done.
        > > S: Yes, for the arahat, no more tanha, no more dissatisfaction, no more mental suffering, but still "sabbe sankhara dukkha"
        > ----------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Who cares? All that means is that conditioned phenomena are among the conditions for dissatisfaction. But without avijja and tanha, they are insufficient conditions.
        > ---------------------------------

        S: It's not a matter of caring, but of understanding the Truths. The first Noble Truth is that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. The Truth is universal.

        > > S: When arahathood has been attained, the job is done. Do you agree that if all defilements are eradicated, at the end of the arahat's life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for dhammas to arise?
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > I agree that when all defilements have been eradicated, there are, right then and there, no sufficient conditions for dissatisfaction to arise, and it will not ever arise. It is then irrelevant whether conditioned dhammas arise or not.
        > -------------------------------

        S: Even for the anagami there are no more conditions for any dissatisfaction, however slight, to arise again. When attachment is finally eradicated, no more conditions for further birth.
        > > ....
        > > > It is not the mere presence or ending of conditioned dhammas that leads to suffering, but craving, aversion, and clinging, and without these, existence is nibbanic and joyful.
        > > ...
        > > S: Craving, aversion and ignorance have been eradicated because all the perversions of view, memory and consciousness have been eradicated.
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > So?
        S: You continue to suggest that when there is no craving or aversion, such as during the arahat's life or now at moments when they don't arise, that there is no suffering. I'm pointing out that the deeper meaning of dukkha, sankhara dukkha, as taught by the Buddha and referred to in the 1st Noble Truth, applies to all conditioned dhammas. So even the khandhas of the arahat are dukkha. The arahat has no more illusion, unlike us, that the dhamma arising now is sukkha rather than dukkha. The nature of dukkha of all conditioned phenomena is completely understood.
        > -------------------------------
        >>S: There is no more illusion of any kind that the impermanent is permanent, the non-self is self, the foul is beautiful or what is dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) is sukha (happy).
        > ------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Yes. So?
        > -----------------------------
        S: So all conditioned dhammas are anicca, anatta, asubha and dukkha.

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