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[dsg] Re: Seeing = Visible object

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  • jonoabb
    Hi again Lukas, Rob E ... J: I happened to come across the sets of conditions in the Vism. (see below). It s in the section on the Elements. As regards
    Message 1 of 299 , Jan 9, 2013
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      Hi again Lukas, Rob E

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote:
      >
      > Hi Lukas (and Rob E)
      >
      > > L: I think that for hearing there must be four conditions. sound, ear, space and attention (if i remember correctly, but this better check. There was said on that for each of 5 senses somewhere in tipitaka). So as I understand that sound and ear are not enought to hear,cause there must be space and also manasikara for hearing consciousness. Like the same was said with conditions for seeing. There must be visible object, eye, light and manasikara. If there is no light nothing can be seen, just darkness. Even for cameras there must be a flash, if we want to take a picture by night.
      >
      > > The same may be with, sound, ear, space and attention. If no space, whatever that means, than no conditions for sound to be heard. Attention in both cases may be kiriya citta that is pancadvaraavajjanacitta. This kind of attention always arises before visible object is seen, or sound is heard. First it needs attention.
      > > ===============
      >
      > J: Thanks for this. I know the set of conditions you refer to. As best I recall, they are as you say (sound, ear, space and attention). I think Rob E's interest lies in the definition of the first of the 4 factors, sound. But the fact that space is also necessary may be of significance (this may refer to the hollow of the ear, I believe).
      > ===============

      J: I happened to come across the sets of conditions in the Vism. (see below). It's in the section on the Elements. As regards hearing, it's pretty much as you said, except that instead of `space' it says `aperture' (I think this refers to the ear cavity).

      Jon


      **********************************************
      Path of Purification, Ch XV, 39.

      And not only are the eye and visible data, etc., conditions for the eyeconsciousness element, etc., [respectively], but also light, etc., are too. Hence the former teachers said:
      "- Eye-consciousness arises due to eye, visible datum, light, and attention.
      - Ear-consciousness arises due to ear, sound, aperture, and attention.
      - Nose-consciousness arises due to nose, odour, air, and attention.
      - Tongue-consciousness arises due to tongue, flavour, water, and attention.
      - Bodyconsciousness arises due to body, tangible datum, earth, and attention.
      - Mindconsciousness arises due to life-continuum-mind, mental datum, and attention."
      **********************************************
    • sarah
      Hi Howard, ... S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away.
      Message 299 of 299 , Mar 4, 2013
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        Hi Howard,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

        > > S: As Jon wrote in another recent post: "Dukkha is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. As long as there is life in samsara, there is dukkha (even for the arahant).
        > ------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > What does it mean for there to be dukkha FOR the arahant?
        > ------------------------------------

        S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away. Each of these elements is dukkha.
        ....
        > >S: "Dukkha is ended only when parinibbana is attained."
        > -------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > If one experiences no dissatisfaction, why should one care whether dhammas are not sources of satisfaction?
        > ---------------------------------------
        S: That's the point. When attachment and ignorance have been eradicated, there is no more caring or searching for satisfaction, no more conditions for rebirth. The job is done.
        ....
        > > S: Yes, for the arahat, no more tanha, no more dissatisfaction, no more mental suffering, but still "sabbe sankhara dukkha"
        > ----------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Who cares? All that means is that conditioned phenomena are among the conditions for dissatisfaction. But without avijja and tanha, they are insufficient conditions.
        > ---------------------------------

        S: It's not a matter of caring, but of understanding the Truths. The first Noble Truth is that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. The Truth is universal.
        ....

        > > S: When arahathood has been attained, the job is done. Do you agree that if all defilements are eradicated, at the end of the arahat's life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for dhammas to arise?
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > I agree that when all defilements have been eradicated, there are, right then and there, no sufficient conditions for dissatisfaction to arise, and it will not ever arise. It is then irrelevant whether conditioned dhammas arise or not.
        > -------------------------------

        S: Even for the anagami there are no more conditions for any dissatisfaction, however slight, to arise again. When attachment is finally eradicated, no more conditions for further birth.
        ...
        > > ....
        > > > It is not the mere presence or ending of conditioned dhammas that leads to suffering, but craving, aversion, and clinging, and without these, existence is nibbanic and joyful.
        > > ...
        > > S: Craving, aversion and ignorance have been eradicated because all the perversions of view, memory and consciousness have been eradicated.
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > So?
        ....
        S: You continue to suggest that when there is no craving or aversion, such as during the arahat's life or now at moments when they don't arise, that there is no suffering. I'm pointing out that the deeper meaning of dukkha, sankhara dukkha, as taught by the Buddha and referred to in the 1st Noble Truth, applies to all conditioned dhammas. So even the khandhas of the arahat are dukkha. The arahat has no more illusion, unlike us, that the dhamma arising now is sukkha rather than dukkha. The nature of dukkha of all conditioned phenomena is completely understood.
        > -------------------------------
        >>S: There is no more illusion of any kind that the impermanent is permanent, the non-self is self, the foul is beautiful or what is dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) is sukha (happy).
        > ------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Yes. So?
        > -----------------------------
        S: So all conditioned dhammas are anicca, anatta, asubha and dukkha.
        ...
        Metta

        Sarah
        =====
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