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  • connie
    hey Howard, KenH, ... subservient to it. ... HCW: Mmm, thanks. I m not sure I m totally getting this, but I will work on it. ... c: What, subservience?^
    Message 1 of 299 , Jan 8, 2013
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      hey Howard, KenH,

      > > AN 4.24
      > > Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One
      > > Would not posit as categorically true or false
      > > anything seen, heard, or sensed,
      > > clung to and considered truth by others. (Bodhi)
      > c: Bodhi's footnote 668: << I paraphrase Mp's explanation of this verse: "He would not take even one claim of the speculative theorists (di.t.thigatikaa) - who are 'self-constrained' (sayasa.mvutesu) in the sense that they are constrained or blocked by their conceptions - to be categorical or supreme and trust it, believe it, fall back on it as true or false (eva.m sacca.m musaa vaapi para.m uttama.m katvaa na odaheyya, na saddaheyya, na pattiyaayeyya), thinking: 'This alone is true and anything else is false.'" This explanation nicely connects the verse to the prose line, "the Tathaagata did not become
      subservient to it." >>
      Mmm, thanks. I'm not sure I'm totally getting this, but I will work on it.

      c: What, subservience?^ It was more the Safeguarding Truth verse I thought you -& Stephen Hawking <The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance but the illusion of knowledge.> - would appreciate. I’d dropped the mind-bending chicken & egg matter by the way, in case you thought I’d lost you following that crossroad. (Part of my cruel streak: torturing the language).

      I love that footnote: who will save Di.t.thigatika, the mad scientist, from his own pet theories - and other travesties of misplaced faith! But they lure us in, these yakkhii: close your eyes, listen... this is what it looks like in the dark, their breath* sweet like the ether where they weave their spells & you’re touched, dancing like you wear red shoes... you don’t want to hear that story.

      Once (Mi511), <Magandiya said to the Lord: I have confidence that if the good Gotama were to teach me Dhamma, I could rise from my seat no longer blind.> But most of us don’t want our eyes opened about the harpies, either. We’d rather hang on and die.

      Well now, tears! <<This is the watery element exuding from the eyes>> as Buddhaghosa reminds us: <<And in mentally grasping tears, the student should grasp them as they fill the eye-sockets>>.

      When you get right down to it, the monsters are clinging and wrong-views; they live outside the books, yes, but even doubters have been known to fear catching a glimpse peeking in the covers.

      so yaks connie!

      ^Bodhi, AN 4.24 –note #666: Mp: "He does not misconceive (na ma~n~nati) visible form by way of craving, conceit, or views; and so for the other objects. By this passage, the plane of emptiness (su~n~nataabhuumi) is explained."

      *As lions, elephants and tigers are gradually tamed, so also the breath, when rightly managed (comes under control); else it kills the practitioner. -minor upanishads

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sarah
      Hi Howard, ... S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away.
      Message 299 of 299 , Mar 4 10:44 PM
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        Hi Howard,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

        > > S: As Jon wrote in another recent post: "Dukkha is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. As long as there is life in samsara, there is dukkha (even for the arahant).
        > ------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > What does it mean for there to be dukkha FOR the arahant?
        > ------------------------------------

        S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away. Each of these elements is dukkha.
        > >S: "Dukkha is ended only when parinibbana is attained."
        > -------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > If one experiences no dissatisfaction, why should one care whether dhammas are not sources of satisfaction?
        > ---------------------------------------
        S: That's the point. When attachment and ignorance have been eradicated, there is no more caring or searching for satisfaction, no more conditions for rebirth. The job is done.
        > > S: Yes, for the arahat, no more tanha, no more dissatisfaction, no more mental suffering, but still "sabbe sankhara dukkha"
        > ----------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Who cares? All that means is that conditioned phenomena are among the conditions for dissatisfaction. But without avijja and tanha, they are insufficient conditions.
        > ---------------------------------

        S: It's not a matter of caring, but of understanding the Truths. The first Noble Truth is that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. The Truth is universal.

        > > S: When arahathood has been attained, the job is done. Do you agree that if all defilements are eradicated, at the end of the arahat's life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for dhammas to arise?
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > I agree that when all defilements have been eradicated, there are, right then and there, no sufficient conditions for dissatisfaction to arise, and it will not ever arise. It is then irrelevant whether conditioned dhammas arise or not.
        > -------------------------------

        S: Even for the anagami there are no more conditions for any dissatisfaction, however slight, to arise again. When attachment is finally eradicated, no more conditions for further birth.
        > > ....
        > > > It is not the mere presence or ending of conditioned dhammas that leads to suffering, but craving, aversion, and clinging, and without these, existence is nibbanic and joyful.
        > > ...
        > > S: Craving, aversion and ignorance have been eradicated because all the perversions of view, memory and consciousness have been eradicated.
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > So?
        S: You continue to suggest that when there is no craving or aversion, such as during the arahat's life or now at moments when they don't arise, that there is no suffering. I'm pointing out that the deeper meaning of dukkha, sankhara dukkha, as taught by the Buddha and referred to in the 1st Noble Truth, applies to all conditioned dhammas. So even the khandhas of the arahat are dukkha. The arahat has no more illusion, unlike us, that the dhamma arising now is sukkha rather than dukkha. The nature of dukkha of all conditioned phenomena is completely understood.
        > -------------------------------
        >>S: There is no more illusion of any kind that the impermanent is permanent, the non-self is self, the foul is beautiful or what is dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) is sukha (happy).
        > ------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Yes. So?
        > -----------------------------
        S: So all conditioned dhammas are anicca, anatta, asubha and dukkha.

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