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Re: Seeing = Visible object

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  • connie
    dear friends, ... connie: So, I guess, reads the oft-quoted IMHO . Turning to what might be a more, shall we say, vetted Opinion, I would *reply below* -
    Message 1 of 299 , Dec 30, 2012
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      dear friends,

      > Alex: Sound cannot be without hearing. It is process in the brain.
      > Same with color.
      >

      connie: So, I guess, reads the oft-quoted "IMHO".

      Turning to what might be a more, shall we say, vetted Opinion, I would *reply below* - from the Commentary section following the Summary of the Topics of the Abhidhamma, Ch4, #9: << The duration of material dhammas is seventeen of these consciousness-moments. >>

      Commentary: << Immaterial things change fast, material things change slowly, each being produced momentarily in their [respective] conditions as that which apprehends and that which is apprehended, and so he states the words beginning, /These/.
      /These/: of the same kind as these. /Seventeen-consciousness-moments/ are moments that are equivalent to the moments of seventeen consciousnesses, or they are seventeen consciousness-moments; this is the construction. But taken separately there are fifty-one consciousness moments. {p123 n2 - Seventeen multiplied by the three moments of arising, presence and dissolution.}
      /Of material dhammas/: of material dhammas other than the kinds of communication and the characteristic [phases]. For the two kinds of communication last for one consciousness-moment, and are therefore mentioned among the dhammas whose occurrence coincides with consciousness; and of the characteristic [phases], birth and impermanence have the same duration as the moments of arising and dissolution of consciousness, while decay lasts for forty-nine consciousness-moments. In consideration of this they say:
      <Except for communication and the characteristic [phases], it lasts for seventeen consciousnesses.> {Sacc 60}
      Because of the statement in the [Abhidhamma] Commentary on dependent arising, 'so far eleven consciousness-moments have passed, there are five consciousness-moments remaining,' {Vibh-a 157; Vism 549 (ChVII, 137)} some say that material dhammas last for only sixteen consciousness-moments; they argue that the mere arising of materiality is the condition for the vibrating of the existence-continuum. But this [argument] lacks substance. That [material dhammas] last for seventeen consciousness-moments has come down in the [Abhidhamma] Commentary itself:
      <Materiality that has arisen along with the relinking consciousness ceases with the seventeenth [moment of consciousness] after that; materiality that has arisen at the presence-moment of the relinking consciousness ceases at the arising-moment of the eighteenth ...> {Vibh-a 28}.
      Where only sixteen consciousness-moments are declared, the method employed is with reference to the moment that is capable of acting as the condition for the activity of consciousness. For it is enough to explain that *for materiality to be capable of coming into the range [of consciousness] it must have been there for at least one consciousness-moment.* >>

      <end quotes>
      connie: note the "at least". it's pretty fantastic to think of the odds of approach at all.

      happy new worlds,
      connie
    • sarah
      Hi Howard, ... S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away.
      Message 299 of 299 , Mar 4 10:44 PM
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        Hi Howard,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

        > > S: As Jon wrote in another recent post: "Dukkha is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. As long as there is life in samsara, there is dukkha (even for the arahant).
        > ------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > What does it mean for there to be dukkha FOR the arahant?
        > ------------------------------------

        S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away. Each of these elements is dukkha.
        ....
        > >S: "Dukkha is ended only when parinibbana is attained."
        > -------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > If one experiences no dissatisfaction, why should one care whether dhammas are not sources of satisfaction?
        > ---------------------------------------
        S: That's the point. When attachment and ignorance have been eradicated, there is no more caring or searching for satisfaction, no more conditions for rebirth. The job is done.
        ....
        > > S: Yes, for the arahat, no more tanha, no more dissatisfaction, no more mental suffering, but still "sabbe sankhara dukkha"
        > ----------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Who cares? All that means is that conditioned phenomena are among the conditions for dissatisfaction. But without avijja and tanha, they are insufficient conditions.
        > ---------------------------------

        S: It's not a matter of caring, but of understanding the Truths. The first Noble Truth is that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. The Truth is universal.
        ....

        > > S: When arahathood has been attained, the job is done. Do you agree that if all defilements are eradicated, at the end of the arahat's life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for dhammas to arise?
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > I agree that when all defilements have been eradicated, there are, right then and there, no sufficient conditions for dissatisfaction to arise, and it will not ever arise. It is then irrelevant whether conditioned dhammas arise or not.
        > -------------------------------

        S: Even for the anagami there are no more conditions for any dissatisfaction, however slight, to arise again. When attachment is finally eradicated, no more conditions for further birth.
        ...
        > > ....
        > > > It is not the mere presence or ending of conditioned dhammas that leads to suffering, but craving, aversion, and clinging, and without these, existence is nibbanic and joyful.
        > > ...
        > > S: Craving, aversion and ignorance have been eradicated because all the perversions of view, memory and consciousness have been eradicated.
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > So?
        ....
        S: You continue to suggest that when there is no craving or aversion, such as during the arahat's life or now at moments when they don't arise, that there is no suffering. I'm pointing out that the deeper meaning of dukkha, sankhara dukkha, as taught by the Buddha and referred to in the 1st Noble Truth, applies to all conditioned dhammas. So even the khandhas of the arahat are dukkha. The arahat has no more illusion, unlike us, that the dhamma arising now is sukkha rather than dukkha. The nature of dukkha of all conditioned phenomena is completely understood.
        > -------------------------------
        >>S: There is no more illusion of any kind that the impermanent is permanent, the non-self is self, the foul is beautiful or what is dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) is sukha (happy).
        > ------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Yes. So?
        > -----------------------------
        S: So all conditioned dhammas are anicca, anatta, asubha and dukkha.
        ...
        Metta

        Sarah
        =====
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