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Re:4NT = Religious Psychology

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  • sukinderpal narula
    Hi Alex, ... Alex: It is not. Sukin: My response above was to this from your last post: ... A: All three types of sufferings: Dukkha-Dukkha, viparinama-dukkha,
    Message 1 of 299 , Dec 12, 2012
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      Hi Alex,

      >Suk: So "suffering is in the mind" is misleading, is it not?

      Alex: It is not.

      Sukin: My response above was to this from your last post:

      >S:Are you saying that the First Noble Truth is reference to mental >suffering?

      A: All three types of sufferings: Dukkha-Dukkha, viparinama-dukkha, and sankhara dukkha.<end quote>

      Sankhara Dukkha is Dukkha inherent on all conditioned realities, therefore the case whether or not something is experienced.

      >Suk: Yes, no persons, only conditioned namas and rupas.

      Alex: Huh? Persons do exist. Carrier of a burden does exist. Only Atta does not, and
      this Atta has nothing to do with empiric, non-metaphysical person.

      Sukin: So you really believe in the reality of person? Again, this is from your last post:

      >S:And yes, lobha, dosa and moha are mental realities, but there is >no "person who can engage in harmful behavior to himself and >others".

      A: Speaking conventionally, there is a person. There just isn't Atta. <end quote>

      So "carrier of the burden" is just speaking conventionally or is it not? If a reality, through which doorway is it experienced and what is its characteristic and function? Is it a kusala, akusala or abhyakata dhamma?

      >Suk:Can the "practice" not happen now while one reads a post on the >computer

      Alex: It can, but to what extent and for whom?

      Sukin: This is irrelevant and distracting. The question is about causes and conditions for the arising of panna and not who does or does not have the panna.

      Alex: A young seedling needs protection from certain natural conditions elements, a
      mature tree can easily withstand those natural conditions.

      Sukin: Panna needs to develop, not protected. It is "self" that looks for protection and projects in the name of right practice what is not. Panna of no matter what level is accompanied by a corresponding level of detachment. It is characteristic of this detachment that one does not mind what the present moment is. It is self that seeks to have more and therefore looks for a better time, place and activity.

      Alex: It is one thing to read Dhamma book and consider Dhamma when one is in quite
      room, it is much harder to do it while in busy and loud shopping mall. See the
      above metaphor about seedling and mature tree.

      Sukin: The metaphor can be used by anyone, even a Muslim, Christian, Sikh or Hindu to justify a ritualistic practice. Indeed the Dhamma teaches us to see through this. In a quiet room the kilesas are still very much there to take on any object experienced through the senses or concepts which thinking thinks about. Driving a car does not involve objects more easy to attach to than does reading a book in the privacy of one's room.

      >Suk: Puggala is a concept. Taking it for reality can't come from an
      >understanding about anatta.

      Alex: Puggala is anatta.

      Sukin: And anicca and dukkha? What is the individual characteristic of puggala and what function does it perform?

      Alex: Even though cars and trees are concepts, it doesn't mean that one can easily
      drive a conceptual car through conceptual tree. Or have a conceptual dinner to
      satiate conceptual hunger.

      Sukin: Car is a concept, so why do you qualify it further by stating "conceptual car"? You want to make it sound silly that we drive cars while thinking that it is not real, but you are the one who is being silly with wrong application of logic. Just as it is now when typing this mail, there is no belief that I, typing, computer screen or mail are real, but that what we take for them are in reality, conditioned and conditioning nama and rupa, same with when driving a car and eating to satisfy hunger. What is the problem?

      > Suk: You cited the same Sutta above when making the point that >"person" is
      only conventional. Now you use it to prove that puggala >is real?!

      Alex: Puggala is real and it is anatta.

      Sukin: Right, so tell me more about it, like how it is anatta, anicca and dukkha. What jati is it? How is it known to exist etc.?

      >Suk: "If one understands". And this understanding is the result of >accumulated
      understanding over countless lifetimes and just >"believing in anicca" is
      certainly not sign of this.

      Alex: Maybe the reason why it takes so long is because one is wasting one's time
      learning either useless or false information.

      Sukin: Such as that, in reality there are only conditioned namas and rupas and all these are anatta?

      Alex: In what scholars consider to be the earliest teachings we have, there is no
      teaching about Bodhisattvahood or needing to go through many lifetimes earning

      Sukin: So you do not believe in the concept of Bodhisatta….

      Alex: Maybe "lots of lifetimes of parami hunt" is to get to the position we ALREADY
      are. Now it is time to make the most of it.

      Sukin: See again, how you mischaracterize something in order to make your point. You talk about the accumulation of parami in the same way as you do about the need for deliberate practice, namely "hunt" vs. "make most of it".

      This is how the sasana becomes corrupted i.e. when self-view interprets the Dhamma and starts rejecting what does not fit its agenda. Wait a few years and I think that you will express doubt in kamma / vipaka as well.

      >Tell me Alex, do you believe that the story regarding the >Bodhisatta going
      through aeons of development before becoming a >Perfectly Enlightened One is

      Alex: I do not believe this. It is not in the early suttas.

      Sukin: What else in the Pali canon do you reject at this point?

      > Suk: But the practice that the Buddha referred to, requires "long >time

      Alex: How long? Few hours? Few days? Satipatthana promises results in as little as 7
      days, which is actually quite long when compared to another sutta (MN85) that
      claims that good disciple can achieve Arhathood in 1 day (12 hours).

      Sukin: What is it that is lacking in *you*? Or have you actually attained….? Don't feel shy, just say it. ;-)

      > > >S:Buddha refers to the Awakened One. This can be understood even at >the
      intellectual level, as being the end result of a very special >kind of wisdom.
      > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      > >
      > > A: Same could be said about, lets say, Jesus.
      > Suk: You mean the Bible contains the teachings on the Four Noble >Truths and
      therefore that "ignorance" is ignorance of these same >Truths?

      Alex: What I am saying if we use "This is authority, I believe him, thus the issue is
      settled" is no different from what many different religions say. Each religion
      believes that it has The Truth.

      Sukin: What in my previous statement re: "Buddha refers to the Awakened One. This can be understood even at the intellectual level, as being the end result of a very special kind of wisdom." was suggestive of reliance on authority? After so many years on DSG you still get the impression that we are all blind followers here?

      > > So you merely believe? Why not believe in Jesus?
      > Suk: I don't study the bible because what it teaches is not the >Four Noble
      Truths. But you say it does…..?

      Alex: And a Christian can say that they don't study the Dhamma because it is not work
      of God and doesn't teach about Jesus and his sacrifice that saved us all... :)

      Sukin: So I just answered your question didn't I? Now you are creating yet another diversion by making it sound as if the question was about something else.

      >A: Which teachings? Sarvastivadin? Puggalavadin? Sutrantika? >Yogacara? Chan?
      Zen? Tibetan (which lineage?) Theravadin?
      >Suk: So you are admitting here that you have no reason to think that >the Pali
      canon is correct. You think that it is possible that one or >more of those other
      versions of the Buddha's teachings are?

      Alex: Practical result is the final criterion of truth. If teaching doesn't produce results but excuses that "after billion of lives it will work", I have trouble accepting that.

      Sukin: So I guess you'll find a more agreeable company amongst Sikhs for example. Sikhs express a similar idea regarding the need to attain union within this very life. They think that there is only this lifetime to do whatever needs to be done, because after death one is only dust. Besides they believe in soul and in God and you believe in puggala, and these two have the same roots.

      Practical results? Detachment is one indicator and I don't see this anywhere in what you say, rather the opposite.

      >Suk: What do you understand by pariyatti?

      Alex: Learn to swim in theory, then practice it. Dry learning is useful only to the
      extend that one uses it to swim in water, not one's fantasies.

      Sukin: Please give a direct answer to my above question.
      Anyway, there are only dhammas now or at any other time. The perception that one activity is to be on dry land and another is to swim, one theory and the other practice, is due to not understanding that at any given moment, there are only dhammas. Intellectual understanding does not mistake itself for direct understanding. Rather, the belief that deliberate practice is equivalent to patipatti, it is this that is delusory.


    • sarah
      Hi Howard, ... S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away.
      Message 299 of 299 , Mar 4, 2013
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        Hi Howard,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

        > > S: As Jon wrote in another recent post: "Dukkha is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. As long as there is life in samsara, there is dukkha (even for the arahant).
        > ------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > What does it mean for there to be dukkha FOR the arahant?
        > ------------------------------------

        S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away. Each of these elements is dukkha.
        > >S: "Dukkha is ended only when parinibbana is attained."
        > -------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > If one experiences no dissatisfaction, why should one care whether dhammas are not sources of satisfaction?
        > ---------------------------------------
        S: That's the point. When attachment and ignorance have been eradicated, there is no more caring or searching for satisfaction, no more conditions for rebirth. The job is done.
        > > S: Yes, for the arahat, no more tanha, no more dissatisfaction, no more mental suffering, but still "sabbe sankhara dukkha"
        > ----------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Who cares? All that means is that conditioned phenomena are among the conditions for dissatisfaction. But without avijja and tanha, they are insufficient conditions.
        > ---------------------------------

        S: It's not a matter of caring, but of understanding the Truths. The first Noble Truth is that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. The Truth is universal.

        > > S: When arahathood has been attained, the job is done. Do you agree that if all defilements are eradicated, at the end of the arahat's life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for dhammas to arise?
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > I agree that when all defilements have been eradicated, there are, right then and there, no sufficient conditions for dissatisfaction to arise, and it will not ever arise. It is then irrelevant whether conditioned dhammas arise or not.
        > -------------------------------

        S: Even for the anagami there are no more conditions for any dissatisfaction, however slight, to arise again. When attachment is finally eradicated, no more conditions for further birth.
        > > ....
        > > > It is not the mere presence or ending of conditioned dhammas that leads to suffering, but craving, aversion, and clinging, and without these, existence is nibbanic and joyful.
        > > ...
        > > S: Craving, aversion and ignorance have been eradicated because all the perversions of view, memory and consciousness have been eradicated.
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > So?
        S: You continue to suggest that when there is no craving or aversion, such as during the arahat's life or now at moments when they don't arise, that there is no suffering. I'm pointing out that the deeper meaning of dukkha, sankhara dukkha, as taught by the Buddha and referred to in the 1st Noble Truth, applies to all conditioned dhammas. So even the khandhas of the arahat are dukkha. The arahat has no more illusion, unlike us, that the dhamma arising now is sukkha rather than dukkha. The nature of dukkha of all conditioned phenomena is completely understood.
        > -------------------------------
        >>S: There is no more illusion of any kind that the impermanent is permanent, the non-self is self, the foul is beautiful or what is dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) is sukha (happy).
        > ------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Yes. So?
        > -----------------------------
        S: So all conditioned dhammas are anicca, anatta, asubha and dukkha.

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