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Re: [dsg] Lobha and tahna

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Phil, ... N: I understand how difficult it was, also before her death. She may not have recognized you. My sympathy. Nina. [Non-text portions of this
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 9, 2012
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      Dear Phil,
      Op 8-dec-2012, om 21:20 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

      > With Alzheimer's the person you knew starts disapperaring well
      > before the death citta arises, that helps understanding no matter
      > how painful the disappearance process is.
      ------
      N: I understand how difficult it was, also before her death. She may
      not have recognized you. My sympathy.
      Nina.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • jagkrit2012
      Dear Phil I would like to express my sincere condolence to hear the news of your mother. And it is good to know that everything went well. Jagkrit
      Message 2 of 19 , Dec 9, 2012
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        Dear Phil

        I would like to express my sincere condolence to hear the news of your mother. And it is good to know that everything went well.

        Jagkrit

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Dear Nina
        >
        > First of all, thank you J and S for updloading the discüssions audio.
        > Nina, in last part there is discussion about how meditation goes wrong, and about the importance of understanding whatever has arisen (rather than trying to direct cittas, all that silabata-paramasa.) We hear about "the master" tanha, that is what is always/has always arisen. Are tanha and lobha synonymous? Is it just that we use "tanha" when we speak of 4nts, d.o?
        >
        > Phil
        > p.s my mother passed away but all is well here, for me. It is a holiday from work. Always me, me, me. Nothing/no one nearly as important as me, despite monents of believing otherwise. Actually even my father is doing well. With Alzheimer's the person you knew starts disapperaring well before the death citta arises, that helps understanding no matter how painful the disappearance process is.
        >
      • sarah
        Dear Phil, ... ... S: Thx for encouraging us. Lobha/tanha most the day, it s so precious when there are moments of kusala. ... ... S: So true....always me,
        Message 3 of 19 , Dec 9, 2012
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          Dear Phil,

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:

          > First of all, thank you J and S for updloading the disc�ssions audio.
          ...
          S: Thx for encouraging us.

          Lobha/tanha most the day, it's so precious when there are moments of kusala.

          > p.s my mother passed away but all is well here, for me. It is a holiday from work. Always me, me, me. Nothing/no one nearly as important as me, despite monents of believing otherwise.
          ...
          S: So true....always "me, me, me". Good to realise this so that gradually there can be the growth of more consideration for others.

          Best wishes to all your family at this time.

          Metta

          Sarah
          =====
        • jonoabb
          Dear Phil ... Very sorry to hear about your mother s passing away. My condolences. Jon
          Message 4 of 19 , Dec 10, 2012
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            Dear Phil

            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" <philco777@...> wrote:
            >
            > p.s my mother passed away but all is well here, for me. It is a holiday from work. Always me, me, me. Nothing/no one nearly as important as me, despite monents of believing otherwise. Actually even my father is doing well. With Alzheimer's the person you knew starts disapperaring well before the death citta arises, that helps understanding no matter how painful the disappearance process is.
            > ==============

            Very sorry to hear about your mother's passing away. My condolences.

            Jon
          • philip
            Dear Nina and others Thank you for your condolences ... Do you remember I referred to a letter my cousin s father wrote after he committed suicide this summer:
            Message 5 of 19 , Dec 10, 2012
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              Dear Nina and others

              Thank you for your condolences

              >
              > > With Alzheimer's the person you knew starts disapperaring well
              > > before the death citta arises, that helps understanding no matter
              > > how painful the disappearance process is.
              > ------
              > N: I understand how difficult it was, also before her death. She may
              > not have recognized you. My sympathy.
              > Nina.
              >

              Do you remember I referred to a letter my cousin's father wrote after he committed suicide this summer: "You never know," he wrote, noting that he felt relief that his troubled son had died rather than anguish. We never know what our cittas will be, let alone knowing the cittas of others. There is not much sorrow in the air as we approach the funeral tomorrow, but who knows, perhaps there will be. Anatta, fascinating as always!

              I'll write again when back in Japan about an interesting appreciation of shared experiences of a long married couple (tge kamma involved) vs the memories of those
              experiences. I couldn't quite get it across to my dad cuz I couldn't refer to kamma...well, perhaps I could have...

              phil
              Phil
              phil
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Phil, ... N: Tanha is lobha cetasika but in the Dhammasangani, § 1059, we read that there are almost a hundred names for lobha, denoting the many
              Message 6 of 19 , Dec 10, 2012
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                Dear Phil,
                Op 8-dec-2012, om 21:20 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

                > We hear about "the master" tanha, that is what is always/has always
                > arisen. Are tanha and lobha synonymous? Is it just that we use
                > "tanha" when we speak of 4nts, d.o?
                --------
                N: Tanha is lobha cetasika but in the Dhammasangani, § 1059, we read
                that there are almost a hundred names for lobha, denoting the many
                aspects, intensities, objects that lobha can take. In the D.O. we
                read that tanhaa conditions upaadaana and upaadaana is stronger. Both
                of them are lobha cetasika, but they denote different aspects.
                Vusuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 242.
                < Text Vis.: 'Firmness of craving' is a name for the subsequent
                craving itself, which has become firm by the influence of previous
                craving, which acts as its decisive-support condition. But some have
                said: Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet
                reached, like a thief's stretching out his hand in the
                dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached,
                like the thief's grasping his objective.
                -------
                N: The Tiika explains that craving, tanhaa, as aspiring to an object
                that one has not yet reached, is like excitement or trembling
                (paritassana). Clinging is firm grasping.
                ----------
                Text Vis.: These states oppose fewness of wishes and contentment and
                so they are the roots of the suffering due to seeking and guarding
                (see D.ii,58f.). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief
                simply [false] view.
                -------
                N: According to the Tiika, tanhaa, craving, is opposed to fewness of
                wishes, whereas clinging is opposed to contentment, santu.t.thi.
                Craving is the root of suffering due to searching for what one wants,
                and clinging is the root of suffering since one has to protect what
                one has acquired. >
                ---------
                Nina.
                -



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sukinderpal narula
                Hi Phil, ... Sorry to hear about your mother s passing away. But it is good to see that you can give us good Dhamma reminders even in this situation. Metta,
                Message 7 of 19 , Dec 10, 2012
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                  Hi Phil,


                  > p.s my mother passed away but all is well here, for me. It is a holiday from work. Always me, me, me. Nothing/no one nearly as important as me, despite monents of believing otherwise. Actually even my father is doing well. With Alzheimer's the person you knew starts disapperaring well before the death citta arises, that helps understanding no matter how painful the disappearance process is.


                  Sorry to hear about your mother's passing away. But it is good to see that you can give us good Dhamma reminders even in this situation.

                  Metta,

                  Sukin
                • han tun
                  Dear Nina and Phil, Thank you very much, Nina, for your kind explanation. I have inserted some Paa.li words for my own better understanding. Nina: Tanha is
                  Message 8 of 19 , Dec 10, 2012
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                    Dear Nina and Phil,

                    Thank you very much, Nina, for your kind explanation.
                    I have inserted some Paa.li words for my own better understanding.

                    Nina: Tanha is lobha cetasika but in the Dhammasangani, § 1059, we read that there are almost a hundred names for lobha, denoting the many aspects, intensities, objects that lobha can take. In the D.O. we read that tanhaa conditions upaadaana and upaadaana is stronger. Both of them are lobha cetasika, but they denote different aspects.

                    Vusuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 242.
                    < Text Vis.: 'Firmness of craving' is a name for the subsequent craving itself, which has become firm by the influence of previous craving, which acts as its decisive-support condition. But some have said: Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, like a thief's stretching out his hand in the dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached, like the thief's grasping his objective.

                    'ta.nhaa da.lhatta.m' naama purimata.nhaa upanissayapaccayena da.lhasambhutaa uttarata.nhaava. Keci panaahu: "appattavisayapatthanaa ta.nhaa, andhakaare corassa hatthappasaara.na.m viya; sampattavisayagaha.na.m upaadaana.m, tasseva bha.n.dagaha.na.m viya;
                    -------
                    Nina: The Tiika explains that craving, tanhaa, as aspiring to an object that one has not yet reached, is like excitement or trembling (paritassana). Clinging is firm grasping.
                    ----------
                    Text Vis.: These states oppose fewness of wishes and contentment and so they are the roots of the suffering due to seeking and guarding (see D.ii,58f.). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief simply [false] view.

                    appicchataa santu.t.thithaa pa.tipakkhaaca te dhammaa, tathaa pariyesanaarakkhadukkhamuulaa"ti. Sesupaadaanattaya.m pana sa"nkhepato di.t.thimattameva;
                    -------
                    Nina: According to the Tiika, tanhaa, craving, is opposed to fewness of wishes, whereas clinging is opposed to contentment, santu.t.thi. Craving is the root of suffering due to searching for what one wants, and clinging is the root of suffering since one has to protect what one has acquired. >
                    ---------

                    with metta and respect,
                    Han

                    --- On Tue, 12/11/12, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                    Dear Phil,
                    N: Tanha is lobha cetasika but in the Dhammasangani, § 1059, we read
                    that there are almost a hundred names for lobha, denoting the many
                    aspects, intensities, objects that lobha can take. In the D.O. we
                    read that tanhaa conditions upaadaana and upaadaana is stronger. Both
                    of them are lobha cetasika, but they denote different aspects.
                  • azita
                    hallo Nina, hope you are well and looking forward to seeing you next month. ... azita: these descriptions of tanha are wonderful. When one sees something that
                    Message 9 of 19 , Dec 14, 2012
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                      hallo Nina,

                      hope you are well and looking forward to seeing you next month.

                      > --------
                      > N: Tanha is lobha cetasika but in the Dhammasangani, § 1059, we read
                      > that there are almost a hundred names for lobha, denoting the many
                      > aspects, intensities, objects that lobha can take. In the D.O. we
                      > read that tanhaa conditions upaadaana and upaadaana is stronger. Both
                      > of them are lobha cetasika, but they denote different aspects.
                      > Vusuddhimagga, Ch XVII, 242.
                      > < Text Vis.: 'Firmness of craving' is a name for the subsequent
                      > craving itself, which has become firm by the influence of previous
                      > craving, which acts as its decisive-support condition. But some have
                      > said: Craving is the aspiring to an object that one has not yet
                      > reached, like a thief's stretching out his hand in the
                      > dark; clinging is the grasping of an object that one has reached,
                      > like the thief's grasping his objective.
                      > -------
                      > N: The Tiika explains that craving, tanhaa, as aspiring to an object
                      > that one has not yet reached, is like excitement or trembling
                      > (paritassana). Clinging is firm grasping.
                      > ----------
                      > Text Vis.: These states oppose fewness of wishes and contentment and
                      > so they are the roots of the suffering due to seeking and guarding
                      > (see D.ii,58f.). The remaining three kinds of clinging are in brief
                      > simply [false] view.
                      > -------
                      > N: According to the Tiika, tanhaa, craving, is opposed to fewness of
                      > wishes, whereas clinging is opposed to contentment, santu.t.thi.
                      > Craving is the root of suffering due to searching for what one wants,
                      > and clinging is the root of suffering since one has to protect what
                      > one has acquired. >


                      azita: these descriptions of tanha are wonderful. When one sees something that one likes e.g. tasty food, nice clothes, good books, craving is there immediately and it certainly doesn't feel like contentment!!!! It feels like sticky glue ready to stick to anything.

                      patience, courage and good cheer
                      azita
                    • philip
                      Hello Nina (and Azita) Yes, thanks for answering my question so thoroughly (as always), Nina. phil p.s the grief that wasn t there in the days following my
                      Message 10 of 19 , Dec 15, 2012
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                        Hello Nina (and Azita)

                        Yes, thanks for answering my question so thoroughly (as always), Nina.

                        phil

                        p.s the grief that wasn't there in the days following my mother's death struck hard after I got back to Japan, you never know. I find the mustard seed story is more helpful than reflection on death in single citta terms. How are you doing these days, Nina?
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Phil, ... N: Yes, my thoughts went also very often to the mustard seed story, death and separation are so common. I read Lodewijk s diaries and he wrote
                        Message 11 of 19 , Dec 15, 2012
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                          Dear Phil,
                          Op 15-dec-2012, om 9:08 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:

                          > p.s the grief that wasn't there in the days following my mother's
                          > death struck hard after I got back to Japan, you never know. I find
                          > the mustard seed story is more helpful than reflection on death in
                          > single citta terms. How are you doing these days, Nina?
                          ------
                          N: Yes, my thoughts went also very often to the mustard seed story,
                          death and separation are so common. I read Lodewijk's diaries and he
                          wrote (1959) that he had bought in Calcutta short storis by
                          Rabindranath Tagore. I found them and read: <...he reflected
                          philosophically that in life there are many separations, many deaths.
                          What point was there in going back? Who belonged to whom in this
                          world?...We cling with both arms to false hope, refusing to believe
                          the weightiest proofs against it, embracing it with all our strength.
                          In the end it escapes, ripping our veins and draining our heart's
                          blood; until, regaining consciousness, we rush to fall into snares of
                          delusion all over again.>

                          But thinking of stories makes me very sad, like: he never comes back,
                          gone for good. This is also said of citta, and it is so true. Each
                          single citta never, never returns.
                          When people ask how are you doing I answer that it depends on the
                          moment. I would rather have it that nobody asks, no stories, than I
                          feel O.K.

                          Nina.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • philip
                          Hi Nina ... And I like the mustard seed story because it gets at the more common issue, which is the lobha dosa moha of the bereaved person (remedied by the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Dec 16, 2012
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                            Hi Nina
                            > ------
                            > N: Yes, my thoughts went also very often to the mustard seed story,
                            > death and separation are so common.

                            And I like the mustard seed story because it gets at the more common issue, which is the lobha dosa moha of the bereaved person (remedied by the Buddha's wise advice) of the surviving person, rather than the deeper meaning of death as just one citta, like now. (Which is also true but of such a profound depth that it can, in my opinion, only be appreciated properly in rare moments of understanding that come and go.)



                            > When people ask how are you doing I answer that it depends on the
                            > moment. I would rather have it that nobody asks, no stories, than I


                            I think it depends on the way people ask, it would also be upsetting if nobody asked, I think. I'm sure many people ask having already decided that you are miserable, and no matter how you answer, there will be that assumption that you are miserable. But a Dhamma friend or a friend who is wise in other ways can ask with curiosity and respect for your wisdom and with understanding that feelings come and go, moment by momemnt, and should not be assumed.


                            Phil
                          • Nina van Gorkom
                            Dear Phil, ... N: The Buddha also taught the way leading to liberation from dukkha, that is, liberation from arising and passing away of each conditioned
                            Message 13 of 19 , Dec 17, 2012
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                              Dear Phil,
                              Op 17-dec-2012, om 0:44 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:
                              > And I like the mustard seed story because it gets at the more
                              > common issue, which is the lobha dosa moha of the bereaved person
                              > (remedied by the Buddha's wise advice) of the surviving person,
                              > rather than the deeper meaning of death as just one citta, like
                              > now. (Which is also true but of such a profound depth that it can,
                              > in my opinion, only be appreciated properly in rare moments of
                              > understanding that come and go.)
                              >
                              -------
                              N: The Buddha also taught the way leading to liberation from dukkha,
                              that is, liberation from arising and passing away of each conditioned
                              reality. Even though it seems a simple advice we are reading in a
                              sutta, still, we have to see this in the whole context of the
                              Tipitaka, otherwise the true meaning will escape us all the time. For
                              a moment consoling words will help us, but if they do not go to the
                              root, they are not really effective.
                              Death of each citta, yes, difficult to realize so long as one has not
                              reached the stage of insight which is direct understanding of the
                              arising and falling away of one naama and one ruupa at a time. It is
                              best to begin now to learn the nature of naama and ruupa, knowing
                              their different characteristics. We do not know whether we are still
                              in the human plane where we can listen to Dhamma, tomorrow, today,
                              the next moment. Death can come so quickly, beyond control. Before we
                              know we are gone.
                              --------
                              >
                              > > When people ask how are you doing I answer that it depends on the
                              > > moment. I would rather have it that nobody asks, no stories, than I
                              >
                              > Ph: I think it depends on the way people ask, it would also be
                              > upsetting if nobody asked, I think. I'm sure many people ask having
                              > already decided that you are miserable, and no matter how you
                              > answer, there will be that assumption that you are miserable. But a
                              > Dhamma friend or a friend who is wise in other ways can ask with
                              > curiosity and respect for your wisdom and with understanding that
                              > feelings come and go, moment by momemnt, and should not be assumed.
                              >
                              -------
                              N: I know they mean well. I should not mind so much. It is not in the
                              Thai culture to ask much, like, how is your mother, how is your aunt,
                              etc. I feel well in the Thai culture.
                              Feelings change all the time. I had a musical session with my nephews
                              (accompanying the recorder and cello on the clavecymbel) and I felt
                              happy continuing to do what Lodewijk used to do. I could laugh again.
                              Laughing and crying. They are only dhammas, but, to realize this at
                              the moment? I am really forgetful and obviously haven't listened
                              enough. Listening and considering is never enough.
                              ------
                              Nina.
                            • philip
                              Dear Nina Forgive me for reducing your message to the following. I am feeling like I don t want to be on the internet...(as usual, and as usual, here I am!)
                              Message 14 of 19 , Dec 17, 2012
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                                Dear Nina

                                Forgive me for reducing your message to the following. I am feeling like I don't want to be on the internet...(as usual, and as usual, here I am!)

                                > I could laugh again.
                                > Laughing and crying. They are only dhammas, but, to realize this at
                                > the moment? I am really forgetful and obviously haven't listened
                                > enough. Listening and considering is never enough.

                                Indeed. When we listen to reminders about the present reality it seems so clear, then we are swept away again and again. But that is the way it has to be, if there is an idea of consistent mindfulness, it is lobha, with an idea of self that is in control.

                                Perhaps this will be my last message for awhile. Also very sorry to say that I had to advise Sarah and Sukin that I won't be able to make the trip to Thailand, the sudden trip to Canada, and another trip to see my father before long, with Naomi, this time. She hasn't seen him for a few years now. That will have to take precedence. I was looking forward to meeting you. Hopefully in 2014!

                                With respect and gratitude,

                                Phil
                              • Nina van Gorkom
                                Dear Phil, ... N: We never know what will happen and understandable that because of circumstances you cannot make the trip. I do not know about 2014, can I
                                Message 15 of 19 , Dec 17, 2012
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                                  Dear Phil,
                                  Op 17-dec-2012, om 11:43 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:
                                  > > I could laugh again.
                                  > > Laughing and crying. They are only dhammas, but, to realize this at
                                  > > the moment? I am really forgetful and obviously haven't listened
                                  > > enough. Listening and considering is never enough.
                                  >
                                  > Indeed. When we listen to reminders about the present reality it
                                  > seems so clear, then we are swept away again and again. But that is
                                  > the way it has to be, if there is an idea of consistent
                                  > mindfulness, it is lobha, with an idea of self that is in control.
                                  >
                                  > Perhaps this will be my last message for awhile. Also very sorry to
                                  > say that I had to advise Sarah and Sukin that I won't be able to
                                  > make the trip to Thailand,
                                  >
                                  ------
                                  N: We never know what will happen and understandable that because of
                                  circumstances you cannot make the trip. I do not know about 2014, can
                                  I still walk around and travel?

                                  Nina.
                                • azita
                                  Hallo Nina and Phil, firstly, sorry you won t be joining us in Jan, Phil. and as I write this I think that none of us really know if we will be there. its so
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Dec 17, 2012
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                                    Hallo Nina and Phil,

                                    firstly, sorry you won't be joining us in Jan, Phil. and as I write this I think that none of us really know if we will be there. its so true, Nina as you state below, we never know what will happen.
                                    We plan and plan but sometimes it jst doesn't work out at all.

                                    I have enjoyed reading this dialogue between you two, our friendships here at dsg are very special I think. And some more special than others :)

                                    patience, courage and good cheer
                                    azita



                                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                                    Dear Phil,
                                    Op 17-dec-2012, om 11:43 heeft philip het volgende geschreven:
                                    I could laugh again.
                                    Laughing and crying. They are only dhammas, but, to realize this at
                                    the moment? I am really forgetful and obviously haven't listened
                                    enough. Listening and considering is never enough.

                                    Indeed. When we listen to reminders about the present reality it
                                    seems so clear, then we are swept away again and again. But that is
                                    the way it has to be, if there is an idea of consistent
                                    mindfulness, it is lobha, with an idea of self that is in control.

                                    Perhaps this will be my last message for awhile. Also very sorry to
                                    say that I had to advise Sarah and Sukin that I won't be able to
                                    make the trip to Thailand,

                                    ------
                                    N: We never know what will happen and understandable that because of
                                    circumstances you cannot make the trip. I do not know about 2014, can
                                    I still walk around and travel?

                                    Nina.
                                  • jonoabb
                                    Hi Phil ... Also very sorry to say that I had to advise Sarah and Sukin that I won t be able to make the trip to Thailand, the sudden trip to Canada, and
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Dec 18, 2012
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                                      Hi Phil

                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "philip" wrote:

                                      Also very sorry to say that I had to advise Sarah and Sukin that I won't be able to make the trip to Thailand, the sudden trip to Canada, and another trip to see my father before long, with Naomi, this time. She hasn't seen him for a few years now. That will have to take precedence.
                                      > ===============

                                      J: Sorry to hear that. Will miss your contribution to the discussion. (Will continue with the editing of KK 2012 for you to listen to anyway!)

                                      Jon
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