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Re: [dsg] A passage from Anguttara Nikaya

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  • han tun
    Dear Khun Jagkrit and Nina, I believe I can have choices, and I am making choices. But I do not wish to enter into debate on this issue. I do not know what
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 6, 2012
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      Dear Khun Jagkrit and Nina,

      I believe I can have choices, and I am making choices. But I do not wish to enter into debate on this issue.

      I do not know what type of puthujjana I am. But it does not bother me, because I have no ambition. I do not want to become anything, be it Sotaapanna or something else.

      So, I am doing what I think is right, and I am happy with what I am doing.

      I apologize if I have offended you by saying like this.

      with metta and respect,
      Han
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Han, ... N: You mentioned the Sayadaws, I think the Burmese Sayadaws? It would be interesting to know what they said, if it is not too much trouble for
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 6, 2012
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        Dear Han,
        Op 5-dec-2012, om 21:53 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven:

        > Han; Thank you very much for your useful comments. I fully agree
        > with your comments. It is what the Buddha teaches and it is what
        > the Sayadaws remind us.
        -----
        N: You mentioned the Sayadaws, I think the Burmese Sayadaws? It would
        be interesting to know what they said, if it is not too much trouble
        for you. it is always interesting for us to hear quotes from the
        Burmese books.
        What you wrote about sotaapanna in your last post could never be
        offensive. When we hear he word sotaapanna it is only a word for us
        and when one has not reached that stage it does not have much
        meaning. Therefore to know more about the dhamma that appears now is
        more valuable and we need not worry much or think much about it.
        As to choices, yes, in conventional sense we do speak about choices.
        Tomorrow there will be snow here and I made a choice to phone the
        taxibus instead of going afoot, too slippery. But if we consider the
        different moments of citta it is much more complex. Difficult to know
        when they are kusala cittas and when akusala cittas since they
        alternate all the time.
        ------
        Nina.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ken H
        Hi Nina and Han, ... and when one has not reached that stage it does not have much meaning. Therefore to know more about the dhamma that appears now is more
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 6, 2012
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          Hi Nina and Han,

          ---
          > N: When we hear he word sotaapanna it is only a word for us
          and when one has not reached that stage it does not have much
          meaning. Therefore to know more about the dhamma that appears now is
          more valuable and we need not worry much or think much about it.As to choices, yes, in conventional sense we do speak about choices. Tomorrow there will be snow here and I made a choice to phone the taxibus instead of going afoot, too slippery. But if we consider the different moments of citta it is much more complex.
          ---

          KH: Perhaps we could say, in terms of the Satipatthana Sutta: when a sotaapanna is making a choice he knows the way things are in ultimate reality.

          Ken H
        • han tun
          Dear Nina, Nina: You mentioned the Sayadaws, I think the Burmese Sayadaws? It would be interesting to know what they said, if it is not too much trouble for
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 6, 2012
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            Dear Nina,

            Nina: You mentioned the Sayadaws, I think the Burmese Sayadaws? It would be interesting to know what they said, if it is not too much trouble for you. it is always interesting for us to hear quotes from the Burmese books.

            Han: Yes, the Burmese Sayadaws. There are many references, but they are in Burmese language, and I am not competent enough to translate them into English. Besides, I do not wish to quote a particular Burmese Sayadaw, because if there are criticisms on his teachings, I cannot defend him and (if the Sayadaw has already passed away) he would not be here to defend himself.

            ---------------

            Nina: What you wrote about sotaapanna in your last post could never be offensive. When we hear he word sotaapanna it is only a word for us and when one has not reached that stage it does not have much meaning. Therefore to know more about the dhamma that appears now is more valuable and we need not worry much or think much about it.

            Han: The sotaapanna that I mentioned was just as an example. My emphasis is on the fact that I do not have any ambition, and I do not want to become anything. I will do what I have to do and what I think is right. I am not worried at all about the results. My kamma will decide the outcome for me. So I do not worry at all about anything.

            ---------------

            Nina: As to choices, yes, in conventional sense we do speak about choices. Tomorrow there will be snow here and I made a choice to phone the taxibus instead of going afoot, too slippery. But if we consider the different moments of citta it is much more complex. Difficult to know when they are kusala cittas and when akusala cittas since they alternate all the time.

            Han: I am happy with my choices in the "conventional sense." I agree with you when you said: [But if we consider the different moments of citta it is much more complex. Difficult to know when they are kusala cittas and when akusala cittas since they alternate all the time.] And I do not try to understand such complex issues. I just think, speak, and do what I think is right and leave the rest to my kamma.

            with metta and respect,
            Han
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Han, ... N: Very good. Kh Sujin said in the coffee shop in Warsaw at the end of the Poland trip:
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 7, 2012
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              Dear Han,

              Op 6-dec-2012, om 23:21 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven:

              > My emphasis is on the fact that I do not have any ambition, and I
              > do not want to become anything. I will do what I have to do and
              > what I think is right. I am not worried at all about the results.
              > My kamma will decide the outcome for me. So I do not worry at all
              > about anything.
              ------
              N: Very good. Kh Sujin said in the coffee shop in Warsaw at the end
              of the Poland trip:
              <If you want to be a good person, be now, right now or begin at this
              moment. This is the accumulation of what you would like to be in this
              life. It has to be this moment. Each moment we can call next life.
              Doing good deeds, like always being friendly, no selection of time,
              place, different people. Appreciate good deeds, the goodness of
              virtues.>
              -------
              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • han tun
              Dear Nina, Han: My emphasis is on the fact that I do not have any ambition, and I do not want to become anything. I will do what I have to do and what I think
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 7, 2012
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                Dear Nina,

                Han: My emphasis is on the fact that I do not have any ambition, and I do not want to become anything. I will do what I have to do and what I think is right. I am not worried at all about the results. My kamma will decide the outcome for me. So I do not worry at all about anything.
                ------
                Nina: Very good. Kh Sujin said in the coffee shop in Warsaw at the end of the Poland trip:
                <If you want to be a good person, be now, right now or begin at this moment. This is the accumulation of what you would like to be in this life. It has to be this moment. Each moment we can call next life. Doing good deeds, like always being friendly, no selection of time, place, different people. Appreciate good deeds, the goodness of virtues.>
                -------

                Han: I admire and respect very much your kind understanding about me and your great patience towards me. Please do not think that I do not appreciate your kind advice. I do appreciate all your useful comments: it is just that I am a born-rebel!

                I thank you very much for your useful comment this time also.

                with metta and respect,
                Han
              • jagkrit2012
                Dear Khun Han ... JJ: It should be my deepest apology toward my improper comment which step out of the line. My comparison, however, came with sincere respect
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 7, 2012
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                  Dear Khun Han

                  >H: I do not know what type of puthujjana I am. But it does not bother me, because I have no ambition. I do not want to become anything, be it Sotaapanna or something else.
                  >
                  > So, I am doing what I think is right, and I am happy with what I am doing.
                  >
                  > I apologize if I have offended you by saying like this.

                  JJ: It should be my deepest apology toward my improper comment which step out of the line. My comparison, however, came with sincere respect and admiration by having chances to read your several valuable postings on important suttas and many time you help finding complete suttas I was unable to do that but only translated from Thai Tipitika. And many comment of suttas of you brings more clearer on the Lord Buddha teaching.

                  Please forgive me for my careless comment. I'll be more caution in the future not to reckless intrude others with my idea and thinking.

                  Thank you again for your honest reminder and I'm so sorry.

                  Jagkrit
                • han tun
                  Dear Khun Jagkrit, Han: I do not know what type of puthujjana I am. But it does not bother me, because I have no ambition. I do not want to become anything, be
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 7, 2012
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                    Dear Khun Jagkrit,

                    Han: I do not know what type of puthujjana I am. But it does not bother me, because I have no ambition. I do not want to become anything, be it Sotaapanna or something else. So, I am doing what I think is right, and I am happy with what I am doing. I apologize if I have offended you by saying like this.

                    -----------

                    JJ: It should be my deepest apology toward my improper comment which step out of the line. My comparison, however, came with sincere respect and admiration by having chances to read your several valuable postings on important suttas and many time you help finding complete suttas I was unable to do that but only translated from Thai Tipitika. And many comment of suttas of you brings more clearer on the Lord Buddha teaching.

                    Please forgive me for my careless comment. I'll be more caution in the future not to reckless intrude others with my idea and thinking. Thank you again for your honest reminder and I'm so sorry.

                    ----------

                    Han: It is I who has to apologize. It is absolutely nothing wrong with your writing. It is I who is, at times, unreasonable and tend to react un-appropriately. That is one reason why I do not participate at the discussions. I do not trust myself.

                    Please continue to write to me whatever is in your mind. I appreciate your ideas because you think and write very much the same as we, Burmese, think and write.

                    with metta and deepest respect for your forgiving-mind,
                    Han
                  • jagkrit2012
                    Dear Khun Han ... JJ: Thank you very much for your kind understanding. This again reminds me about the word kalyanamittata which I can find some explanation
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 7, 2012
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                      Dear Khun Han


                      > H: Please continue to write to me whatever is in your mind. I appreciate your ideas because you think and write very much the same as we, Burmese, think and write.

                      JJ: Thank you very much for your kind understanding. This again reminds me about the word "kalyanamittata" which I can find some explanation in Mitta Sutta: A Friend translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

                      "Monks, a friend endowed with seven qualities is worth associating with. Which seven? He gives what is hard to give. He does what is hard to do. He endures what is hard to endure. He reveals his secrets to you. He keeps your secrets. When misfortunes strike, he doesn't abandon you. When you're down & out, he doesn't look down on you. A friend endowed with these seven qualities is worth associating with."


                      He gives what is beautiful,
                      hard to give,

                      *****does what is hard to do,
                      endures painful, ill-spoken words.********

                      His secrets he tells you,
                      your secrets he keeps.

                      When misfortunes strike,
                      he doesn't abandon you;
                      when you're down & out,
                      doesn't look down on you.

                      A person in whom these traits are found,
                      is a friend to be cultivated
                      by anyone wanting a friend.
                      ====================

                      Thank you very much and it is very fortunate to have a chance to read, learn and discuss dhamma with you.

                      Anumodhana

                      Jagkrit
                    • han tun
                      Dear Khun Jagkrit, Thank you very much for quoting the Mitta Sutta. I have all the books, but I cannot read all. Only when a friend like you points out some
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 8, 2012
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                        Dear Khun Jagkrit,

                        Thank you very much for quoting the Mitta Sutta.
                        I have all the books, but I cannot read all. Only when a friend like you points out some suttas I read them. The Mitta Sutta is one such sutta which I have not yet read. Now that you have quoted it, I read. And I thank you very much because it is an excellent sutta. For Paa.li lovers, I print below the Paa.li text with the translation by Ven Thanisaro Bhikkhu.

                        AN 7.36. Pa.thamamittasutta.m
                        AN 7.35 Mitta Sutta: A Friend, translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

                        36. "Sattahi, bhikkhave, a"ngehi samannaagato mitto sevitabbo. Katamehi sattahi? (i) Duddada.m dadaati, (ii) dukkara.m karoti, (iii) dukkhama.m khamati, (iv) guyhamassa aavi karoti, (v) guyhamassa pariguhati, (vi) aapadaasu na jahati, (vii) khii.nena naatima~n~nati. Imehi kho, bhikkhave, sattahi a"ngehi samannaagato mitto sevitabbo"ti.

                        "Monks, a friend endowed with seven qualities is worth associating with. Which seven? (i) He gives what is hard to give. (ii) He does what is hard to do. (iii) He endures what is hard to endure. (iv) He reveals his secrets to you. (v) He keeps your secrets. (vi) When misfortunes strike, he doesn't abandon you. (vii) When you're down and out, he doesn't look down on you. A friend endowed with these seven qualities is worth associating with."
                        ----------
                        "Duddada.m dadaati mitto, dukkara~ncaapi kubbati;
                        Athopissa duruttaani, khamati dukkhamaani ca.

                        "He gives what is beautiful, hard to give,
                        does what is hard to do, endures painful, ill-spoken words.
                        ----------
                        "Guyha~nca tassa akkhaati, guyhassa pariguuhati;
                        aapadaasu na jahaati, khii.nena naatima~n~nati.

                        "His secrets he tells you, your secrets he keeps.
                        When misfortunes strike, he doesn't abandon you;
                        when you're down and out, doesn't look down on you.
                        ----------
                        "Yamhi etaani .thaanaani, sa.mvijjantiidha puggale;
                        So mitto mittakaamena, bhajitabbo tathaavidho"ti.

                        "A person in whom these traits are found,
                        is a friend to be cultivated by anyone wanting a friend."
                        ---------------

                        Han: You are indeed a Kalyaa.namitta!

                        with metta and respect,
                        Han


                        --- On Sat, 12/8/12, jagkrit2012 <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:
                        Dear Khun Han
                        JJ: Thank you very much for your kind understanding. This again reminds me about the word "kalyanamittata" which I can find some explanation in Mitta Sutta: A Friend translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
                        ------
                        Thank you very much and it is very fortunate to have a chance to read, learn and discuss dhamma with you.
                        Anumodhana
                        Jagkrit
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Han, ... N: You made me laugh and that is good. It seems that I forgot laughing lately. I know you long enough, but you are a very sympathetic rebel.
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 8, 2012
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                          Dear Han,
                          Op 7-dec-2012, om 21:13 heeft han tun het volgende geschreven:

                          > I do appreciate all your useful comments: it is just that I am a
                          > born-rebel!
                          ------
                          N: You made me laugh and that is good. It seems that I forgot
                          laughing lately. I know you long enough, but you are a very
                          sympathetic rebel. Always kind and helpful. As Jagkrit said, taking
                          so much trouble with all those sutta passages. That is kusala citta.
                          About the quote of Kh Sujin, I like it because it is daily life and
                          not at all complicated or theoretical. When listening to the Poland
                          discussions I found she stressed the present moment all the time.
                          Knowing more about our different cittas is not theoretical. We do not
                          have to think of terms, but acquire more understanding of a
                          characteristic (lakkha.na) when it presents itself. That is the
                          reason she speaks all the time about characteristics.
                          Thank you for the mitta sutta.
                          Nina.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • han tun
                          Dear Nina, I am glad that I made you laugh. It is said that the laughter is a kind of medicine. Lately, I could not laugh. I am extremely worried about one of
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 8, 2012
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                            Dear Nina,

                            I am glad that I made you laugh. It is said that the laughter is a kind of medicine.

                            Lately, I could not laugh. I am extremely worried about one of my grandchildren.

                            A friend tells me that I am like a man who is in the middle of the river, about to be drowned, but who is worried about someone of drowning; someone who is on the bank far away from the water!

                            with metta and respect,
                            Han

                            --- On Sat, 12/8/12, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                            Dear Han,
                            Han: I do appreciate all your useful comments: it is just that I am a
                            born-rebel!
                            ------
                            Nina: You made me laugh and that is good. It seems that I forgot
                            laughing lately. I know you long enough, but you are a very
                            sympathetic rebel. Always kind and helpful. As Jagkrit said, taking
                            so much trouble with all those sutta passages. That is kusala citta.
                            About the quote of Kh Sujin, I like it because it is daily life and
                            not at all complicated or theoretical. When listening to the Poland
                            discussions I found she stressed the present moment all the time.
                            Knowing more about our different cittas is not theoretical. We do not
                            have to think of terms, but acquire more understanding of a
                            characteristic (lakkha.na) when it presents itself. That is the
                            reason she speaks all the time about characteristics.
                            Thank you for the mitta sutta.
                            Nina.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • jagkrit2012
                            Dear Khun Han and all ... JJ: I have the same feeling of beauty of this Mitta Sutta like yours. And I think that any person who can understand Paa.li shall
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 9, 2012
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                              Dear Khun Han and all


                              >H: Thank you very much for quoting the Mitta Sutta.
                              > I have all the books, but I cannot read all. Only when a friend like you points out some suttas I read them. The Mitta Sutta is one such sutta which I have not yet read. Now that you have quoted it, I read. And I thank you very much because it is an excellent sutta. For Paa.li lovers, I print below the Paa.li text with the translation by Ven Thanisaro Bhikkhu.

                              JJ: I have the same feeling of beauty of this Mitta Sutta like yours. And I think that any person who can understand Paa.li shall realise more deeply how excellent of this sutta is.
                              ===============

                              > H: You are indeed a Kalyaa.namitta!

                              JJ: Thank you very much for your kind words. I'm so honored and have the same feeling to you with respect.

                              Today, in Thai dhamma discussion at the foundation. We also discussed about good friend (Kalyaa.namitta) and bad friend (Paara.mitta). These are some interesting quotes that T.A.Sujin mentioned in the dicussion:


                              " Do we want to have a good friend or do we want to be a good friend?"

                              " In general, we always expect something from others. We expect good things from good friends. Therefore, to have a good friends or to be a good friend, which is better?" (remark: expectation is always lobha)

                              " We hope not to have a bad or betrayed friend but are we betrayed friends?"

                              " Which one is worst: having a betrayed friend or being a betrayed friend?"

                              " Having a good friend or a bad friend is the consequence of how good or bad friend we were"

                              "We will not be a betrayed friend even we have a betrayed friend."

                              "Others may be heartless but can we be kind-hearted? Ready to be good friend and help them with metta until they become good."
                              ---------------

                              "Who never have a betrayed friend?"

                              "When we don't know the betrayed friend, we are not aware that we have the betrayed friend with us all the time"

                              "Lobha! it is our real betrayed friend"

                              "Lobha is also our close friend, never leave us alone. It brings us anything we want."

                              "Lobha eventually brings us suffering: it, then, explodes itself as the real betrayed friend"

                              "Only pannaa will gradually take us part from this betrayed friend"
                              --------------

                              Thank you and anumodhana

                              Jagkrit
                            • han tun
                              Dear Khun Jagkrit, Thank you very much for sharing the outcome of your discussions at the Foundation. They are indeed very good points. with metta and respect,
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 9, 2012
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                                Dear Khun Jagkrit,

                                Thank you very much for sharing the outcome of your discussions at the Foundation.
                                They are indeed very good points.

                                with metta and respect,
                                Han

                                --- On Sun, 12/9/12, jagkrit2012 <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:
                                Dear Khun Han and all

                                JJ: I have the same feeling of beauty of this Mitta Sutta like yours. And I think that any person who can understand Paa.li shall realise more deeply how excellent of this sutta is.
                                ===============
                                > H: You are indeed a Kalyaa.namitta!

                                JJ: Thank you very much for your kind words. I'm so honored and have the same feeling to you with respect.

                                Today, in Thai dhamma discussion at the foundation. We also discussed about good friend (Kalyaa.namitta) and bad friend (Paara.mitta). These are some interesting quotes that T.A.Sujin mentioned in the dicussion:

                                " Do we want to have a good friend or do we want to be a good friend?"

                                " In general, we always expect something from others. We expect good things from good friends. Therefore, to have a good friends or to be a good friend, which is better?" (remark: expectation is always lobha)

                                " We hope not to have a bad or betrayed friend but are we betrayed friends?"

                                " Which one is worst: having a betrayed friend or being a betrayed friend?"

                                " Having a good friend or a bad friend is the consequence of how good or bad friend we were"

                                "We will not be a betrayed friend even we have a betrayed friend."

                                "Others may be heartless but can we be kind-hearted? Ready to be good friend and help them with metta until they become good."
                                ---------------
                                "Who never have a betrayed friend?"

                                "When we don't know the betrayed friend, we are not aware that we have the betrayed friend with us all the time"

                                "Lobha! it is our real betrayed friend"

                                "Lobha is also our close friend, never leave us alone. It brings us anything we want."

                                "Lobha eventually brings us suffering: it, then, explodes itself as the real betrayed friend"

                                "Only pannaa will gradually take us part from this betrayed friend"
                                --------------
                                Thank you and anumodhana
                                Jagkrit
                              • sarah
                                Dear Han, ... ... S: I m so sorry to hear about your worry about your grandchild. More beloved ones, more worries, life after life. Without the Dhamma, we are
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 15, 2012
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                                  Dear Han,

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

                                  > I am glad that I made you laugh. It is said that the laughter is a kind of medicine.
                                  >
                                  > Lately, I could not laugh. I am extremely worried about one of my grandchildren.
                                  >
                                  > A friend tells me that I am like a man who is in the middle of the river, about to be drowned, but who is worried about someone of drowning; someone who is on the bank far away from the water!
                                  ...
                                  S: I'm so sorry to hear about your worry about your grandchild. More beloved ones, more worries, life after life.

                                  Without the Dhamma, we are completely lost, but with the Dhamma, we find there is a refuge, the only refuge, by developing the Path.

                                  Best wishes to you and your grandchild and family, dear Friend.

                                  Metta

                                  Sarah
                                  =====
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