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Re: [dsg] Kamma as action II - was Re: Unborn and Undying Awareness [Existence & non-existence]

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  • Herman
    Hi Jon, ... By kamma one is a farmer, by kamma one is a brahmin. That s the Buddha I know, your Buddha is actually called Buddhagosa. ... Kamma-patha, as
    Message 1 of 3 , Dec 4, 2012
      Hi Jon,

      On 4 December 2012 17:29, jonoabb <jonabbott@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Hi Herman
      >
      > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi Jon,
      > >
      > > > J: The mental factor of intention that accompanies such cittas is what
      > is meant by the term `kamma' (or `action').
      >
      > >
      > > H: No, sorry, I don't buy that. Like I said - kamma patha, There is a
      > world of
      >
      > > difference between actually killing, stealing or lying, and thinking
      > about
      > > it. Thinking about killing, stealing or lying has no consequence, other
      > > than for thinking.
      > > ===============
      >
      > J: There appears to be a misunderstanding between us regarding the use of
      > intention/intending to.
      >
      > Because I agree with your observation that there is a difference between
      > intending to do something (as a prelude to doing the act) and actually
      > doing it. No argument on that point at all.
      >
      > However, in the teachings the term 'intention' denotes a specific mental
      > factor that accompanies all moments of consciousness, including those at
      > the 'intending to do' stage as well as those at the time of the actual
      > doing.
      >
      > In both cases the (mental factor of) intention is considered to be
      > 'kamma', but not necessarily kamma-patha.
      >
      > Of course, not all actual doing is kamma-patha. And while most kinds of
      > kamma-patha require some act of body or speech, there are some kinds of
      > kamma-patha that are purely mental 'conduct' requiring no act of body or
      > speech.
      >
      > So returning to the analysis of different classes of consciousness, these
      > include vipaka citta as one kind and kusala and akusala citta as another
      > (or 2 others).
      >
      >
      > Vipaka citta/consciousness is the moment of actual experiencing of a
      > sense-door object through one of the sense-doors (e.g., seeing, hearing),
      > before there is any liking or disliking of, or assigning of meaning to, or
      > `making sense of', what is being experienced. That citta moment is said to
      > be the result of past kamma.
      >
      > The subsequent functions of liking or disliking, or assigning of meaning
      > to, or `making sense of', what has just been experienced through a
      > sense-door are performed by the cittas that `run through' the object, and
      > these are either kusala or akusala. The mental factor of intention that
      > accompanies such cittas is what is meant by the term `kamma' (or `action').
      >
      > Thus, rather than speak about 'actions that can be ceased' and actions
      > that cannot, the Buddha spoke about these different classes of
      > consciousness. Moments of actual seeing are vipaka citta, while the kusala
      > or akusala moment of consciousness that 'run through' the visible object
      > are, technically, moments of kamma.
      >
      >

      By kamma one is a farmer, by kamma one is a brahmin. That's the Buddha I
      know, your Buddha is actually called Buddhagosa.



      > Kamma-patha is, in terms of dhammas, the mental factor of intention that
      > accompanies certain kinds of conduct through body, speech or mind.
      >
      >
      Kamma-patha, as speech and bodily actions, in terms of Buddhagosa's
      dhammas, is utterly meaningless.


      So, what are you doing now? I'm typing :-)




      > Jon
      >


      --
      Cheers

      Herman


      I do not know what I do not know


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