Re: [dsg] Kamma as action II - was Re: Unborn and Undying Awareness [Existence & non-existence]
- Hi Jon,
On 4 December 2012 17:29, jonoabb <jonabbott@...> wrote:
> Hi Herman
> --- In email@example.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
> > Hi Jon,
> > > J: The mental factor of intention that accompanies such cittas is what
> is meant by the term `kamma' (or `action').
> > H: No, sorry, I don't buy that. Like I said - kamma patha, There is a
> world of
> > difference between actually killing, stealing or lying, and thinking
> > it. Thinking about killing, stealing or lying has no consequence, other
> > than for thinking.
> > ===============
> J: There appears to be a misunderstanding between us regarding the use of
> intention/intending to.
> Because I agree with your observation that there is a difference between
> intending to do something (as a prelude to doing the act) and actually
> doing it. No argument on that point at all.
> However, in the teachings the term 'intention' denotes a specific mental
> factor that accompanies all moments of consciousness, including those at
> the 'intending to do' stage as well as those at the time of the actual
> In both cases the (mental factor of) intention is considered to be
> 'kamma', but not necessarily kamma-patha.
> Of course, not all actual doing is kamma-patha. And while most kinds of
> kamma-patha require some act of body or speech, there are some kinds of
> kamma-patha that are purely mental 'conduct' requiring no act of body or
> So returning to the analysis of different classes of consciousness, these
> include vipaka citta as one kind and kusala and akusala citta as another
> (or 2 others).
> Vipaka citta/consciousness is the moment of actual experiencing of a
> sense-door object through one of the sense-doors (e.g., seeing, hearing),
> before there is any liking or disliking of, or assigning of meaning to, or
> `making sense of', what is being experienced. That citta moment is said to
> be the result of past kamma.
> The subsequent functions of liking or disliking, or assigning of meaning
> to, or `making sense of', what has just been experienced through a
> sense-door are performed by the cittas that `run through' the object, and
> these are either kusala or akusala. The mental factor of intention that
> accompanies such cittas is what is meant by the term `kamma' (or `action').
> Thus, rather than speak about 'actions that can be ceased' and actions
> that cannot, the Buddha spoke about these different classes of
> consciousness. Moments of actual seeing are vipaka citta, while the kusala
> or akusala moment of consciousness that 'run through' the visible object
> are, technically, moments of kamma.
By kamma one is a farmer, by kamma one is a brahmin. That's the Buddha I
know, your Buddha is actually called Buddhagosa.
> Kamma-patha is, in terms of dhammas, the mental factor of intention that
> accompanies certain kinds of conduct through body, speech or mind.
Kamma-patha, as speech and bodily actions, in terms of Buddhagosa's
dhammas, is utterly meaningless.
So, what are you doing now? I'm typing :-)
I do not know what I do not know
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