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Re: Seeing = Visible object

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  • jrg493
    Dear Alex, ... The naive realism I quoted is a common or stock statement in many, many suttas. I don t know if that matters or not, however. :) But what you
    Message 1 of 299 , Nov 29, 2012
      Dear Alex,


      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Josh,
      >
      > > Some questions: Would you agree with the statement
      > > "Dependent on the eye & forms there arises eye-consciousness." ?
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      >
      > Only if by "form" we take electromagnetic radiation (390-750 nm, 400–790 THz) in such and such a range. Otherwise, I don't agree with the quoted naive realism.


      The "naive realism" I quoted is a common or stock statement in many, many suttas. I don't know if that matters or not, however. :) But what you are doing in calling it naive realism is saying that the suttas --- &, therefore, the dhamma --- is naively realistic in its explanation of daily experience &, to extend it, that Buddhists are naive realists, whereas you --- & science --- are not naive realists.

      But If I were so inclined I could call your belief & viewpoint that there is "electromagnetic radiation" a form of naive realism, but as you might guess, I'm not that inclined. However, both the Yogacara or Vijnanavada sect would claim that any definition of anything that exists outside of what arises from the seeds (bijas) within the alaya-vijnana (storehouse or treasury consciousness) is a form of naive realism, & would back up their statements with logic & quotation from their respective sutras. [note to everyone else: I'm not recommending we get into a discussion of Yogacara, just using it as an example]

      The point is, there exists many viewpoints but can you give us an account of when you realized that your viewpoint was the sole correct viewpoint, & that the viewpoint of sutta was naive realism? And, if so, why would have any interest in sutta or dhamma at all, if you know deep down that you are more clever than them & exist in an age where so much mysterious to these 5th century B.C. Indians has been made clear?

      That anyone would be interested in the statements of any Indian sect in antiquity --- whether it still exists or not --- usually, I would say, stems from a disatisfaction with what Western Philosophy & science has to offer. Would you count yourself among these or does your interest stem from something else?


      > > And, in this regard, are you defining "visible object" as form & >"seeing" as eye-consciousness?
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > Visible object is brain's interpretation of electromagnetic radiation that travels to the eye, interpreted in retina which sends the signal by optic nerve.


      There is a distinction between the subjective contents of experience itself as it occurs to us as a vital reality & the explanations for how this occurs. I might appreciate a poem, for example, but this appreciation is, in experience, far removed for how it is explained objectively as an occurrence of neuro-chemistry. There are levels, also, to experience & existence above & beyond what science can currently map.


      > >Also, if I were to put a red ball by a blue chair & look at it, >then look away, why is it that when I look away I do not still see >the red ball & blue chair?
      > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
      >
      > You do not see because electromagnetic radiation don't reach your eyes, retina, optic nerve, brain.


      Also, have you ever read any writings on Idealism --- East or West? And if so, what was it that convinced you that their critique of any objective physical reality was unconvincing?


      In Dhamma
      - Josh
    • sarah
      Hi Howard, ... S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away.
      Message 299 of 299 , Mar 4, 2013
        Hi Howard,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@... wrote:

        > > S: As Jon wrote in another recent post: "Dukkha is a characteristic of all conditioned dhammas. As long as there is life in samsara, there is dukkha (even for the arahant).
        > ------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > What does it mean for there to be dukkha FOR the arahant?
        > ------------------------------------

        S: It means that whilst the arahat lives, all the khandhas, all the conditioned elements (taken for the arahat) continue to arise and fall away. Each of these elements is dukkha.
        ....
        > >S: "Dukkha is ended only when parinibbana is attained."
        > -------------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > If one experiences no dissatisfaction, why should one care whether dhammas are not sources of satisfaction?
        > ---------------------------------------
        S: That's the point. When attachment and ignorance have been eradicated, there is no more caring or searching for satisfaction, no more conditions for rebirth. The job is done.
        ....
        > > S: Yes, for the arahat, no more tanha, no more dissatisfaction, no more mental suffering, but still "sabbe sankhara dukkha"
        > ----------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Who cares? All that means is that conditioned phenomena are among the conditions for dissatisfaction. But without avijja and tanha, they are insufficient conditions.
        > ---------------------------------

        S: It's not a matter of caring, but of understanding the Truths. The first Noble Truth is that all conditioned dhammas are dukkha. The Truth is universal.
        ....

        > > S: When arahathood has been attained, the job is done. Do you agree that if all defilements are eradicated, at the end of the arahat's life, at parinibbana, there are no more conditions for dhammas to arise?
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > I agree that when all defilements have been eradicated, there are, right then and there, no sufficient conditions for dissatisfaction to arise, and it will not ever arise. It is then irrelevant whether conditioned dhammas arise or not.
        > -------------------------------

        S: Even for the anagami there are no more conditions for any dissatisfaction, however slight, to arise again. When attachment is finally eradicated, no more conditions for further birth.
        ...
        > > ....
        > > > It is not the mere presence or ending of conditioned dhammas that leads to suffering, but craving, aversion, and clinging, and without these, existence is nibbanic and joyful.
        > > ...
        > > S: Craving, aversion and ignorance have been eradicated because all the perversions of view, memory and consciousness have been eradicated.
        > -----------------------------
        > HCW:
        > So?
        ....
        S: You continue to suggest that when there is no craving or aversion, such as during the arahat's life or now at moments when they don't arise, that there is no suffering. I'm pointing out that the deeper meaning of dukkha, sankhara dukkha, as taught by the Buddha and referred to in the 1st Noble Truth, applies to all conditioned dhammas. So even the khandhas of the arahat are dukkha. The arahat has no more illusion, unlike us, that the dhamma arising now is sukkha rather than dukkha. The nature of dukkha of all conditioned phenomena is completely understood.
        > -------------------------------
        >>S: There is no more illusion of any kind that the impermanent is permanent, the non-self is self, the foul is beautiful or what is dukkha (unsatisfactory or suffering) is sukha (happy).
        > ------------------------------
        > HCW:
        > Yes. So?
        > -----------------------------
        S: So all conditioned dhammas are anicca, anatta, asubha and dukkha.
        ...
        Metta

        Sarah
        =====
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