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Re: [dsg] Re: MN 2 Sabbaasava Sutta: All the Taints (5)

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  • Herman
    Dear Han Tun, ... ... -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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      Dear Han Tun,

      On 3 November 2012 08:37, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Dear Nina,
      >
      > Thank you very much for your patience and kind efforts to make me
      > understand.
      >
      > "The present reality".
      >
      > It is not difficult to understand the "reality".
      > But for me, it is difficult to get to the "present".
      > All the books say that one must stay at or observe the "present".
      > But it will need a very strong samaadhi to get to the "present" at the
      > time of the "present".
      > The "present" comes and passes away immediately.
      > When I think I am at the "present" the "present" has already passed away.
      >
      > Yes, yes, yes, exactly so.

      <snip>



      > with metta and respect,
      > Han ._,___
      >



      --
      Cheers

      Herman


      I do not know what I do not know


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • philip
      Dear Han ... The present reailty has fallen away but the nimitta is the object of awareness and we say present though technically saying no longer prsent. I
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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        Dear Han
        > >
        > > It is not difficult to understand the "reality".
        > > But for me, it is difficult to get to the "present".
        > > All the books say that one must stay at or observe the "present".
        > > But it will need a very strong samaadhi to get to the "present" at the
        > > time of the "present".
        > > The "present" comes and passes away immediately.
        > > When I think I am at the "present" the "present" has already passed away.
        > >


        The present reailty has fallen away but the nimitta is the object of awareness and we say "present" though technically saying no longer prsent. I have heard the great Burmese teacher U Silananda say this too, exactly. Not a problem in my opinion.

        But I respect what you say about your standard, aware of lust or anger, but no bad deed in body speech or thought? It is is a good thing.


        Phil
      • han tun
        Dear Phil, Phil: The present realty has fallen away but the nimitta is the object of awareness and we say present though technically saying no longer
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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          Dear Phil,

          Phil: The present realty has fallen away but the nimitta is the object of awareness and we say "present" though technically saying no longer present. I have heard the great Burmese teacher U Silananda say this too, exactly. Not a problem in my opinion.

          Han: If possible, please give me the textual reference of what Sayadaw U Siilananda said on this issue.

          Thank you very much.

          with metta and respect,
          Han

          --- On Sat, 11/3/12, philip <philco777@...> wrote:
          Dear Han
          The present reailty has fallen away but the nimitta is the object of awareness and we say "present" though technically saying no longer prsent. I have heard the great Burmese teacher U Silananda say this too, exactly. Not a problem in my opinion.

          But I respect what you say about your standard, aware of lust or anger, but no bad deed in body speech or thought? It is is a good thing.
          Phil
        • han tun
          Dear Herman, I acknowledge the receipt of your comments with thanks. with metta and respect, Han ... Dear Han Tun, ... -- Cheers Herman I do not know
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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            Dear Herman,

            I acknowledge the receipt of your comments with thanks.

            with metta and respect,
            Han

            --- On Sat, 11/3/12, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
            Dear Han Tun,

            > Yes, yes, yes, exactly so.

            <snip>

            --
            Cheers

            Herman

            I do not know what I do not know

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • philip
            Dear Han I m afraid I can t give you a textual reference. I listened to many U Silananda talks and heard him say it once, that of course the present reality
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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              Dear Han

              I'm afraid I can't give you a textual reference. I listened to many U Silananda talks and heard him say it once, that of course the present reality has fallen away but for the purpose of satipatthana we say it is still prsesent. I remember being impressed by that because it told me this nimitta (I can't remember if he used that word, actually) is not an original teaching of A.Sujin. And it settled doubts for me about how, logically speaking, there could possibly be awareness of a present reality which must have fallen away already.

              Having said that I think there is almost always thinking/speculation about recently past dhammas rather than a more direct awareness of them. I think awareness is a very rare event, mostly we are just thinking, often with attachment to wanting more awareness. I think.

              Phil
            • jagkrit2012
              Dear Han, Phill, all ... JJ: As Phil mentioned nimitta concerning present. I went and looked in Thai discussion and found Q and A about present answered by one
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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                Dear Han, Phill, all


                > > > Han: It is not difficult to understand the "reality".
                > > > But for me, it is difficult to get to the "present".
                > > > All the books say that one must stay at or observe the "present".
                > > > But it will need a very strong samaadhi to get to the "present" at the
                > > > time of the "present".
                > > > The "present" comes and passes away immediately.
                > > > When I think I am at the "present" the "present" has already passed away.
                > > >
                >
                >
                > Phill: The present reailty has fallen away but the nimitta is the object of awareness and we say "present" though technically saying no longer prsent. I have heard the great Burmese teacher U Silananda say this too, exactly. Not a problem in my opinion.
                >
                > But I respect what you say about your standard, aware of lust or anger, but no bad deed in body speech or thought? It is is a good thing.
                -----------------

                JJ: As Phil mentioned nimitta concerning present. I went and looked in Thai discussion and found Q and A about present answered by one of speaker in the foundation. It is interesting. I, therefore, took this for sharing.

                Asking: At the moment of seeing, visible object which is dhamma characteristic of aarammana (object for citta to experience) has passed. But I heard that be aware of nama or rupa. Namma or ruppa should be at the present aarammana. But in fact it has fallen away and being the past already. Can we call that the past nama or rupa which just felt away present aramaama?

                Answering: There are 3 meaning of present (Pachuban).

                1. Present moment (Pachuban kana) means the moment that dhamma characteristic still presents: arising, staying and falling away.
                2. Present of succession (Pachuban santati) means present by short succession from present moment.
                3. Pachuban attaya means present by broad meaning such as this life is present life.

                Satipatthana experiences dhamma charateristic which is being present. It means aarammana of sati at that moment must be paramattha dhamma which appeals for sati to experience. That is present of succession which is the succession of dhamma characteristic which can appear for sati. Even that dhamma characteristic has fallen away but it just shortly felt away and still appears it succession to show its characteristic.


                In the commentary of Abidhamma Pitaka, Vipang, Book 2, session 2

                There is a footnote to explain the word "long present" that present has 4; present moment, present of succession, present day and Pachuban attaya. And past and future has the same 4 meanings. (from Sammohavinothani Commentary page 9)

                JJ: I think it is impossible to experience present moment in the first meaning because citta arises one at a time. But for the second meaning of present by its short succession, we can. And this should support nimitta that Phill has mentioned.

                With respect and anumodhana

                Jagkrit
              • han tun
                Dear Phil, Thank you very much for your kind explanation. Yes, it is a difficult subject and we can go on discussing without getting anywhere. That is why I go
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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                  Dear Phil,

                  Thank you very much for your kind explanation.
                  Yes, it is a difficult subject and we can go on discussing without getting anywhere.
                  That is why I go for simple things, like Dhammapada verse 183.
                  183. Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind, this is the Teaching of the Buddhas.

                  Here, the only problem for me will be to purify one's mind. How much pure can I go? Not very much! Without samatha jhaana or vipassanaa insight, I will not be able to get rid of the pariyu.t.thaana kilesa, let alone anusaya kilesa. But if I can avoid viitikkama kilesa I will be happy.

                  with metta and respect,
                  Han

                  --- On Sat, 11/3/12, philip <philco777@...> wrote:
                  Dear Han

                  I'm afraid I can't give you a textual reference. I listened to many U Silananda talks and heard him say it once, that of course the present reality has fallen away but for the purpose of satipatthana we say it is still prsesent. I remember being impressed by that because it told me this nimitta (I can't remember if he used that word, actually) is not an original teaching of A.Sujin. And it settled doubts for me about how, logically speaking, there could possibly be awareness of a present reality which must have fallen away already.

                  Having said that I think there is almost always thinking/speculation about recently past dhammas rather than a more direct awareness of them. I think awareness is a very rare event, mostly we are just thinking, often with attachment to wanting more awareness. I think.

                  Phil
                • han tun
                  Dear Khun Jagkrit, Thank you very much for the three meanings of present (Paccuppanna): 1. Present moment (Paccuppanna kha.na) means the moment that dhamma
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 2, 2012
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                    Dear Khun Jagkrit,

                    Thank you very much for the three meanings of present (Paccuppanna):

                    1. Present moment (Paccuppanna kha.na) means the moment that dhamma characteristic still presents: arising, staying and falling away.
                    2. Present of succession (Paccuppanna santati) means present by short succession from present moment.
                    3. Paccuppanna attaya means present by broad meaning such as this life is present life.

                    -----------

                    Han: I also like your following comment:

                    JJ: I think it is impossible to experience present moment in the first meaning because citta arises one at a time. But for the second meaning of present by its short succession, we can. And this should support nimitta that Phill has mentioned.

                    with metta and respect,
                    Han

                    --- On Sat, 11/3/12, jagkrit2012 <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:
                    Dear Han, Phill, all

                    JJ: As Phil mentioned nimitta concerning present. I went and looked in Thai discussion and found Q and A about present answered by one of speaker in the foundation. It is interesting. I, therefore, took this for sharing.

                    Asking: At the moment of seeing, visible object which is dhamma characteristic of aarammana (object for citta to experience) has passed. But I heard that be aware of nama or rupa. Namma or ruppa should be at the present aarammana. But in fact it has fallen away and being the past already. Can we call that the past nama or rupa which just felt away present aramaama?

                    Answering: There are 3 meaning of present (Pachuban).

                    1. Present moment (Pachuban kana) means the moment that dhamma characteristic still presents: arising, staying and falling away.
                    2. Present of succession (Pachuban santati) means present by short succession from present moment.
                    3. Pachuban attaya means present by broad meaning such as this life is present life.

                    Satipatthana experiences dhamma charateristic which is being present. It means aarammana of sati at that moment must be paramattha dhamma which appeals for sati to experience. That is present of succession which is the succession of dhamma characteristic which can appear for sati. Even that dhamma characteristic has fallen away but it just shortly felt away and still appears it succession to show its characteristic.

                    In the commentary of Abidhamma Pitaka, Vipang, Book 2, session 2

                    There is a footnote to explain the word "long present" that present has 4; present moment, present of succession, present day and Pachuban attaya. And past and future has the same 4 meanings. (from Sammohavinothani Commentary page 9)

                    JJ: I think it is impossible to experience present moment in the first meaning because citta arises one at a time. But for the second meaning of present by its short succession, we can. And this should support nimitta that Phill has mentioned.

                    With respect and anumodhana

                    Jagkrit
                  • rjkjp1
                    Hi was this post by Scott cited already in this thread? Visuddhimagga, XIII, 111-114: QUOTE 111. ... Present (paccapanna) is of three kinds, that is to say,
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 4, 2012
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                      Hi
                      was this post by Scott cited already in this thread?


                      Visuddhimagga, XIII, 111-114:

                      QUOTE
                      111. "...'Present' (paccapanna) is of three kinds, that is to say, present by moment, present by continuity, and present by extent. Herein, what has reached arising (uppaada), presence (.thitti), and dissolution (bhanga) is present by moment. What is included in one or two rounds of continuity is present by continuity.
                      112. "Herein, when someone goes to a well-lit place after sitting in the dark, an object is not clear at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. And when he goes into an inner closet after going about in a well-lit place, a visible object is not immediately evident at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. When he stands at a distance, although he sees the alterations (movements) of the hands of the washermen and the alterations (movements) of the striking of the gongs, drums, etc., yet he does not hear the sound at first...; until he hears it, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. This, firstly, is according to the Majjhima reciters.
                      113. "The Sa"myutta reciters, however, say that there are two kinds of continuity, that is to say, material continuity and immaterial continuity: that a material continuity lasts as long as the [muddy] line of water touching the bank when one treads in the water takes to clear, as long as the heat of the body in one who has walked a certain extent takes to die down, as long as the blindness in one who has come from the sunshine into a does not depart, as long as when, after someone has been giving attention to his meditation subject in a room and then opens the shutters by day and looks out, the dazzling in his eyes does not die down; and that immaterial continuity consists in two or three rounds of impulsion. Both of these are [according to them] called 'present by continuity'.
                      114. "What is delimited by a single becoming (existence) is called present by extent, with reference to which it is said in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: 'Friends, the mind and mental objects are both what is present. Consciousness is bound by desire and greed for what is present. Because consciousness is bound by desire and greed he delights in that. When he delights in that, then he is vanquished with respect to present states' (M.iii, 197).
                      And here 'present by continuity' is used in the Commentaries while 'present by extent' is used in the Suttas."


                      Visuddhimagga XIV, 187-191:

                      QUOTE
                      187. Herein, ...firstly, according to extent: in the case of single becoming of one [living being], previous rebirth linking is past, subsequent to death is future, between these two is present.
                      188. ...According to continuity: that [materiality] which has like or single origination by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is present. That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is past. That which is subsequent is future. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent to that is future. There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness.
                      189. ...According to period: any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.
                      190. ...According to moment: what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called present. At a time previous to that it is called future. At a time subsequent to that it is called past.
                      191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
                      And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."


                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jagkrit2012" <jagkrit2012@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Han, Phill, all
                      >
                      >
                      > > > > Han: It is not difficult to understand the "reality".
                      > > > > But for me, it is difficult to get to the "present".
                      > > > > All the books say that one must stay at or observe the "present".
                      > > > > But it will need a very strong samaadhi to get to the "present" at the
                      > > > > time of the "present".
                      > > > > The "present" comes and passes away immediately.
                      > > > > When I think I am at the "present" the "present" has already passed away.
                      > > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Phill: The present reailty has fallen away but the nimitta is the object of awareness and we say "present" though technically saying no longer prsent. I have heard the great Burmese teacher U Silananda say this too, exactly. Not a problem in my opinion.
                      > >
                      > > But I respect what you say about your standard, aware of lust or anger, but no bad deed in body speech or thought? It is is a good thing.
                      > -----------------
                      >
                      > JJ: As Phil mentioned nimitta concerning present. I went and looked in Thai discussion and found Q and A about present answered by one of speaker in the foundation. It is interesting. I, therefore, took this for sharing.
                      >
                      > Asking: At the moment of seeing, visible object which is dhamma characteristic of aarammana (object for citta to experience) has passed. But I heard that be aware of nama or rupa. Namma or ruppa should be at the present aarammana. But in fact it has fallen away and being the past already. Can we call that the past nama or rupa which just felt away present aramaama?
                      >
                      > Answering: There are 3 meaning of present (Pachuban).
                      >
                      > 1. Present moment (Pachuban kana) means the moment that dhamma characteristic still presents: arising, staying and falling away.
                      > 2. Present of succession (Pachuban santati) means present by short succession from present moment.
                      > 3. Pachuban attaya means present by broad meaning such as this life is present life.
                      >
                      > Satipatthana experiences dhamma charateristic which is being present. It means aarammana of sati at that moment must be paramattha dhamma which appeals for sati to experience. That is present of succession which is the succession of dhamma characteristic which can appear for sati. Even that dhamma characteristic has fallen away but it just shortly felt away and still appears it succession to show its characteristic.
                      >
                      >
                      > In the commentary of Abidhamma Pitaka, Vipang, Book 2, session 2
                      >
                      > There is a footnote to explain the word "long present" that present has 4; present moment, present of succession, present day and Pachuban attaya. And past and future has the same 4 meanings. (from Sammohavinothani Commentary page 9)
                      >
                      > JJ: I think it is impossible to experience present moment in the first meaning because citta arises one at a time. But for the second meaning of present by its short succession, we can. And this should support nimitta that Phill has mentioned.
                      >
                      > With respect and anumodhana
                      >
                      > Jagkrit
                      >
                    • han tun
                      Dear rjkjp1, Thank you very much. I did not know that it is in Visuddhimagga. Now, I can find it. I find kha.na-paccuppanna.m (present by moment),
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 4, 2012
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                        Dear rjkjp1,

                        Thank you very much.
                        I did not know that it is in Visuddhimagga.
                        Now, I can find it.

                        I find kha.na-paccuppanna.m (present by moment), santati-paccuppanna.m (present by continuity), and addhaa-paccuppanna.m ( present by extent) explained under Cetopariya~naa,na (Knowledge of penetration of minds) in Chapter XIII.

                        I find in Chapter XIV, under Materiality, that the materiality called (i) past is fourfold, according to (a) extent (addhaa-vasena), (b) continuity (santati-vasena), (c) period (samaya-vasena), and (d) moment (kha.na-vasena). Likewise (ii) the future and (iii) the present.

                        I will study them carefully.

                        Saadhu! Saadhu! Saadhu! for your dhamma daana.

                        with metta and respect,
                        Han

                        --- On Sun, 11/4/12, rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...> wrote:
                        Hi
                        was this post by Scott cited already in this thread?

                        Visuddhimagga, XIII, 111-114:

                        QUOTE
                        111. "...'Present' (paccapanna) is of three kinds, that is to say, present by moment, present by continuity, and present by extent. Herein, what has reached arising (uppaada), presence (.thitti), and dissolution (bhanga) is present by moment. What is included in one or two rounds of continuity is present by continuity.
                        112. "Herein, when someone goes to a well-lit place after sitting in the dark, an object is not clear at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. And when he goes into an inner closet after going about in a well-lit place, a visible object is not immediately evident at first; until it becomes clear, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. When he stands at a distance, although he sees the alterations (movements) of the hands of the washermen and the alterations (movements) of the striking of the gongs, drums, etc., yet he does not hear the sound at first...; until he hears it, one or two rounds of continuity should be understood [to pass] meanwhile. This, firstly, is according to the Majjhima reciters.
                        113. "The Sa"myutta reciters, however, say that there are two kinds of continuity, that is to say, material continuity and immaterial continuity: that a material continuity lasts as long as the [muddy] line of water touching the bank when one treads in the water takes to clear, as long as the heat of the body in one who has walked a certain extent takes to die down, as long as the blindness in one who has come from the sunshine into a does not depart, as long as when, after someone has been giving attention to his meditation subject in a room and then opens the shutters by day and looks out, the dazzling in his eyes does not die down; and that immaterial continuity consists in two or three rounds of impulsion. Both of these are [according to them] called 'present by continuity'.
                        114. "What is delimited by a single becoming (existence) is called present by extent, with reference to which it is said in the Bhaddekaratta Sutta: 'Friends, the mind and mental objects are both what is present. Consciousness is bound by desire and greed for what is present. Because consciousness is bound by desire and greed he delights in that. When he delights in that, then he is vanquished with respect to present states' (M.iii, 197).
                        And here 'present by continuity' is used in the Commentaries while 'present by extent' is used in the Suttas."

                        Visuddhimagga XIV, 187-191:

                        QUOTE
                        187. Herein, ...firstly, according to extent: in the case of single becoming of one [living being], previous rebirth linking is past, subsequent to death is future, between these two is present.
                        188. ...According to continuity: that [materiality] which has like or single origination by temperature and single origination by nutriment, though it occurs successively, is present. That which, previous to that, was of unlike origination by temperature and nutriment is past. That which is subsequent is future. That which is born of consciousness and has its origination in one cognitive series, in one impulsion, in one attainment, is present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent to that is future. There is no special classification into past continuity, etc., of that which has its origination in kamma, but its pastness, etc., should be understood according as it supports those which have their origination through temperature, nutriment, and consciousness.
                        189. ...According to period: any period among those such as one minute, morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity, is called present. Previous to that is past. Subsequent is future.
                        190. ...According to moment: what is included in the trio of moments, [that is to say, arising, presence, and dissolution] beginning with arising is called present. At a time previous to that it is called future. At a time subsequent to that it is called past.
                        191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
                        And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Rob and Han, ... N: adding from the Tiika to these passages:
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 4, 2012
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                          Dear Rob and Han,
                          Op 4-nov-2012, om 10:07 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven:

                          > 191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have
                          > elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose
                          > function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not
                          > attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment
                          > of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is
                          > future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
                          > And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are
                          > absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."
                          ------
                          N: adding from the Tiika to these passages:
                          < The Tiika explains that the classifications of present, past and
                          future as extent (or life span, addhaa), as continuity (serial
                          presence, santati) and as period, samaya, are figurative expressions
                          (sapariyaaya), not literal (nippariyaaya). It explains that there are
                          other dhammas (aññe dhammaa) at present, that there were other
                          dhammas in the past and that there will be other dhammas in the future.
                          This refers to the classification of extent, addhaa, etc. Not to the
                          classification as to moment, kha.na).
                          As we shall see, only the classification according to moment, kha.na,
                          is to be taken literally.

                          N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is
                          nippariyaaya (literal).The last one is in the ultimate sense only.
                          There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan,
                          this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na.
                          We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this
                          lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death,
                          kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death
                          as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present
                          (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body.
                          it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be
                          object of insight.

                          As to samaya, we read: <any period among those such as one minute,
                          morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
                          is called 'present'.>

                          Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different
                          from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
                          function.
                          -------
                          Nina.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • han tun
                          Dear Nina, Saadhu! Saadhu! Saadhu! Thank you very much. It is very useful. with metta and respect, Han ... Dear Rob and Han, ... N: adding from the Tiika to
                          Message 12 of 20 , Nov 4, 2012
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                            Dear Nina,

                            Saadhu! Saadhu! Saadhu!
                            Thank you very much.
                            It is very useful.

                            with metta and respect,
                            Han

                            --- On Sun, 11/4/12, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                            Dear Rob and Han,
                            Op 4-nov-2012, om 10:07 heeft rjkjp1 het volgende geschreven:

                            > 191: Furthermore, that whose functions of cause and condition have
                            > elapsed is past. That whose function of cause is finished and whose
                            > function of condition is unfinished is present. That which has not
                            > attained to either function is future. Or alternatively, the moment
                            > of the function is present. At a time previous to that it is
                            > future. At a time subsequent to that it is past.
                            > And here only the explanations beginning with the moment are
                            > absolutely literal. The rest are in a figurative [or relative] sense."
                            ------
                            N: adding from the Tiika to these passages:
                            < The Tiika explains that the classifications of present, past and
                            future as extent (or life span, addhaa), as continuity (serial
                            presence, santati) and as period, samaya, are figurative expressions
                            (sapariyaaya), not literal (nippariyaaya). It explains that there are
                            other dhammas (aññe dhammaa) at present, that there were other
                            dhammas in the past and that there will be other dhammas in the future.
                            This refers to the classification of extent, addhaa, etc. Not to the
                            classification as to moment, kha.na).
                            As we shall see, only the classification according to moment, kha.na,
                            is to be taken literally.

                            N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is
                            nippariyaaya (literal).The last one is in the ultimate sense only.
                            There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan,
                            this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na.
                            We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this
                            lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death,
                            kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death
                            as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present
                            (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body.
                            it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be
                            object of insight.

                            As to samaya, we read: <any period among those such as one minute,
                            morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
                            is called 'present'.>

                            Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different
                            from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
                            function.
                            -------
                            Nina.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Robert E
                            Hi Nina. ... Thanks for these interesting notes. I wonder if there is more we can know about the serial nature of an element that exists in the moment, but has
                            Message 13 of 20 , Nov 7, 2012
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                              Hi Nina.

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                              > N: the first three are sapariyaaya (figurative) and the last one is
                              > nippariyaaya (literal).The last one is in the ultimate sense only.
                              > There were examples: extent, addhaa: a lifespan. Present lifespan,
                              > this is different from the present moment of citta, kha.na.
                              > We can think of death in conventional sense, the end of this
                              > lifespan. But actually there is all the time momentary death,
                              > kha.nika marana, when the present citta falls away. Looking at death
                              > as kha.nika is very realistic! Continuity or serial present
                              > (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the body.
                              > it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat can be
                              > object of insight.

                              Thanks for these interesting notes.

                              I wonder if there is more we can know about the serial nature of an element that exists in the moment, but has its effect through continued impingement?

                              > As to samaya, we read: <any period among those such as one minute,
                              > morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
                              > is called 'present'.>
                              >
                              > Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise, different
                              > from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
                              > function.

                              And so those are figurative in the precise sense, not really literally actual...?

                              Best,
                              Rob E.

                              - - - - - - - - -
                            • Nina van Gorkom
                              Dear Rob E, ... N: It is important to just understand the characteristic that appears now. No counting, no thinking of a series. Catching it is not possible
                              Message 14 of 20 , Nov 9, 2012
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                                Dear Rob E,
                                Op 8-nov-2012, om 2:12 heeft Robert E het volgende geschreven:

                                > Continuity or serial present
                                > > (santati): utu keeps on producing heat and this impinges on the
                                > body.
                                > > it is a serial presence, but still, the characteristic of heat
                                > can be
                                > > object of insight.
                                >
                                > Thanks for these interesting notes.
                                >
                                > I wonder if there is more we can know about the serial nature of an
                                > element that exists in the moment, but has its effect through
                                > continued impingement?
                                ---------
                                N: It is important to just understand the characteristic that appears
                                now. No counting, no thinking of a series. Catching it is not
                                possible anyway.
                                -------
                                >
                                > R: > As to samaya, we read: <any period among those such as one
                                > minute,
                                > > morning, evening, day-and-night, etc., that occurs as a continuity,
                                > > is called 'present'.>
                                > >
                                > > Thus, the first three are wider in meaning, not as precise,
                                > different
                                > > from exactly this moment (ka.na) of citta or rupa that performs its
                                > > function.
                                >
                                > And so those are figurative in the precise sense, not really
                                > literally actual...?
                                ------
                                N: And even what is present in the literal sense we can never catch,
                                just the nimitta is experienced. We should not mind as to: is it this
                                one or the following one, so long as we learn that it is just a
                                dhamma and in this way there will be more detachment from taking it
                                for self or permanent.
                                ------
                                Nina.



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • sarah
                                Dear Han, ... .... S: It s the same for all of us. Most of the time we think of people and situations and things to be done . However, we can be reminded that
                                Message 15 of 20 , Nov 13, 2012
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                                  Dear Han,

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, han tun <hantun1@...> wrote:

                                  > Thank you very much for your kind comments.
                                  > I respect your opinion.
                                  > Whether I can follow your kind advice or not is another matter.
                                  >
                                  > For example,
                                  > You read all of these to be read in the light of the development of satipa.t.thaana.
                                  > For me, it is not so most of the time. The thought of satipa.t.thaana does not even enter my mind while I am reading most of the books.
                                  ....
                                  S: It's the same for all of us. Most of the time we think of people and situations and things 'to be done'. However, we can be reminded that no matter how we are used to thinking, in fact there are only conditioned realities. Therefore it's not so much a matter of following any advice, but of beginning to understand (theoretically in the beginning) that seeing, hearing, siila and any other conditioned realities cannot be made to arise by will or prevented from arising when there are the right conditions in place.
                                  ....
                                  >
                                  > You said [Adhi virtue (siila), only developed through the understanding of present realities.]
                                  > For me, it is difficult to understand the "present realities".
                                  ....
                                  S: Again, difficult for everyone because of all the accumulated ignorance.

                                  Still, I think we can begin to appreciate that at this moment there is just seeing, visible object, thinking and other realities - no 'me' at all who experiences anything or for whom it is easy or difficult in reality.
                                  ...
                                  >
                                  > Nevertheless, I know it is a good advice when I see one.
                                  > If I cannot follow that good advice, it is my own fault, my own loss!
                                  ....
                                  S: Not anyone's fault - just conditions at different moments now for seeing or hearing to be followed by thinking with ignorance and attachment (as usual) or occasionally by understanding and wise reflection on dhammas, not-self.

                                  Metta

                                  Sarah
                                  =====
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