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Fw: Question on kamma and vipaka citta

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  • sarah abbott
    f/w message to DSG from Tam Bach ... past deeds are also involved? So it is a bit confusing. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 31, 2012
      f/w message to DSG from Tam Bach
      ==========================


      ----- Forwarded Message -----
      >From: Tam Bach <tambach@...>
      >To: sarahprocterabbott@...
      >Sent: Wednesday, 31 October 2012, 19:03
      >Subject: Question on kamma and vipaka citta
      >
      >
      >Dear Sarah,
      >
      >I wanted to put this on the DSG's groups but couldn't. I still can receive all the e-mails of DSG members, but can not access the site, neither to use the function buttons such as "start a new topic". Probably, it is the same problem with FB here, some have access, others don't...
      >
      >So here is our question that we discussed yesterday:
      >
      >Vipaka citta is the result of kusala and akusala kamma, and it can be in the form of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching.
      >
      >When some one, let's say, steals something, he is performing an akusala. But in order to do so, he has to touch, look, listen etc...
      >
      >How to distinguish kamma from vipaka in this case? I understand that it is foremost the intention leading to the action which makes up kamma. But in order for a mental kamma to becomes a bodily kamma, it seems that vipaka of
      past deeds are also involved? So it is a bit confusing.
      >
      >
      >And when, for example, there is a thirst, and then the intention to reach a cup of water and drink it, if the intention is not accompanied by lobha or dosa, is it kiriya citta? And again, the touching and the tasting etc...is again vipaka of other past deeds?
      >
      >We would appreciate some clarification on this,
      >
      >Thanks a lot,
      >
      >Tam 
      >
      >
      >
      >Life is Meditation is Life
      >http://www.thienvacuocsong.info/
      >http://www.trungtamhotong.org/
      >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/
      >http://www.buddhanet.net/
      >http://www.dhammastudygroup.org/
      >http://sayadawutejaniya.org/teachings/
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Tam Bach, ... N: These are all different moments conditioned by different factors. When we think of a conventional situation, a situation of a ,
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 31, 2012
        Dear Tam Bach,
        Op 31-okt-2012, om 9:13 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

        > Vipaka citta is the result of kusala and akusala kamma, and it can
        > be in the form of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching.
        > >
        > >When some one, let's say, steals something, he is performing an
        > akusala. But in order to do so, he has to touch, look, listen etc...
        > >
        > >How to distinguish kamma from vipaka in this case? I understand
        > that it is foremost the intention leading to the action which makes
        > up kamma. But in order for a mental kamma to becomes a bodily
        > kamma, it seems that vipaka of
        > past deeds are also involved? So it is a bit confusing.
        ------
        N: These are all different moments conditioned by different factors.
        When we think of a conventional situation, a situation of a <whole>,
        such as he has to listen, to look before doing a deed, there will be
        confusion as to cause and result.
        When there is hearing, it is result of past kamma, but we cannot know
        which kamma and it is of no use to try to find out. Stealing is
        motivated by akusala citta, and this has nothing to do with other
        vipaakacittas that arise in between. We learn to distinguish
        different realities, and this does not mean that we have to think of
        a connection between them. They each arise because of their own
        condition.
        --------
        >
        > T: >And when, for example, there is a thirst, and then the
        > intention to reach a cup of water and drink it, if the intention is
        > not accompanied by lobha or dosa, is it kiriya citta? And again,
        > the touching and the tasting etc...is again vipaka of other past
        > deeds?
        -----
        N: Again, different dhammas arising at different moments, each
        conditioned by different factors.
        Intention to take a glass of water: mostly motivated by lobha, but
        this may be accompanied by indifferent feeling and then we may not
        notice it. The cetanaa does not have the strength of kamma patha, it
        accompanies merely akusala citta. It cannot be kiriyacitta, because
        only the arahat acts with kiriyacitta. Tasting: vipaakacitta,
        produced by past kamma. A different moment. All realities are very
        momentary, they fall away immediately.
        -----
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tam Bach
        Dear Nina, Thank you for your explanation! N: These are all different moments conditioned by different factors. When we think of a conventional situation, a
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 1, 2012
          Dear Nina,

          Thank you for your explanation!

          N: These are all different moments conditioned by different factors.

          When we think of a conventional situation, a situation of a <whole>,

          such as he has to listen, to look before doing a deed, there will be

          confusion as to cause and result.

          When there is hearing, it is result of past kamma, but we cannot know

          which kamma and it is of no use to try to find out. Stealing is

          motivated by akusala citta, and this has nothing to do with other

          vipaakacittas that arise in between. We learn to distinguish

          different realities, and this does not mean that we have to think of

          a connection between them. They each arise because of their own

          condition

          T: For us the confusion here came rather from the error of considering cetana as the sole cause of a bodily action.

          Yet it seems with your answer now that actually, the vipaka of past
          deeds also come into play in the making of kamma at present. Though the
          thief has to look around and reach something, what he actually sees and
          whether he can reach what he wants to reach also depends on vipaka of
          past deeds. It demonstrates again anattaness...

          Another question came to mind: there are mental, verbal and bodily kammas.What can we say about the vipaka of mental kamma? When there is karuna which gives rise to the thought of helping someone and then for some reason, it's not done, what is the vipaka of that kusala citta then?

          N: Intention to take a glass of water: mostly motivated by lobha, but

          this may be accompanied by indifferent feeling and then we may not

          notice it. The cetana does not have the strength of kamma patha, it

          accompanies merely akusala citta. It cannot be kiriyacitta, because

          only the arahat acts with kiriyacitta.

          T: by ways of jati, there are four kinds of citta: kusala, akusala, vipaka, and kiriya citta. If only the arahant acts with kiriya citta, does that mean the intention to drink water for any other being must be accompanied by akusala or kusala? What about for an anagami who has no more lobha for sense objects?

          Thanks and metta,
          Tam



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Tam, ... N: I may not have explained it clearly that there is the world of conventional situations and stories and there is the world in the ultimate
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 3, 2012
            Dear Tam,
            Op 1-nov-2012, om 8:50 heeft Tam Bach het volgende geschreven:

            > Yet it seems with your answer now that actually, the vipaka of past
            > deeds also come into play in the making of kamma at present. Though
            > the
            > thief has to look around and reach something, what he actually sees
            > and
            > whether he can reach what he wants to reach also depends on vipaka of
            > past deeds. It demonstrates again anattaness...
            ------
            N: I may not have explained it clearly that there is the world of
            conventional situations and stories and there is the world in the
            ultimate sense: the realities of citta, cetasika and ruupa.
            When we think of a thief who has to look around and reach for things,
            this is the world of situations and stories we can think of. When we
            consider citta, cetasika and ruupa it is the truth in the ultimate
            sense. Citta, cetasika and ruupa arise and then fall away
            immediately, and there is no time to think about any situation. They
            each arise because of their own condition and when we think about any
            connection between them we are again lost in stories about
            conventional phenomena. Citta, cetasika and ruupa are already gone
            when we think about them.
            This is a good topic to discuss when Acharn Sujin visits you. I hope
            you can give is some report.
            -------
            >
            > T: Another question came to mind: there are mental, verbal and
            > bodily kammas.What can we say about the vipaka of mental kamma?
            > When there is karuna which gives rise to the thought of helping
            > someone and then for some reason, it's not done, what is the vipaka
            > of that kusala citta then?
            -------
            N: There is kamma through body, through speech and through the mind.
            But as to vipaaka, we cannot know. We should not try to find out
            since this is a domain of Buddhas. It belongs to the <unthinkables>.
            Your example of helping someone , this is similar to wanting to give
            but when time comes one does not give. This kamma is very weak. BUt
            we cannot know about the vipaaka and why should we try to know?
            -------
            >
            > T: by ways of jati, there are four kinds of citta: kusala, akusala,
            > vipaka, and kiriya citta. If only the arahant acts with kiriya
            > citta, does that mean the intention to drink water for any other
            > being must be accompanied by akusala or kusala?
            -------
            N: right.
            -----
            > T: What about for an anagami who has no more lobha for sense objects?
            -------
            N: He still has moha, he may have forgetfulness of realities. Or
            conceit. Or kusala cittas with mindfulness of naama and ruupa.
            --------
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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