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The Debate : Soul In The Breath?/Going Forth

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  • Yawares Sastri
    Dear Members, I truly love/admire Bhikkhu Nagasena. ************** The Debate Of King Milinda [Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala] #4. So, Devamantiya, Anantakàya and
    Message 1 of 14 , Oct 22 7:03 AM
      Dear Members,

      I truly love/admire Bhikkhu Nagasena.

      **************

      The Debate Of King Milinda
      [Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala]

      #4. So, Devamantiya, Anantakàya and Mankura went to
      Nàgasena's hermitage to accompany the monks to the
      palace. As they were walking along together Anantakàya
      said to Nàgasena, "When, your reverence, I say, `Nàgasena'
      what is that Nàgasena?"

      "What do you think that Nàgasena is?"

      "The soul, the inner breath, which comes and goes."

      "But if that breath, having gone out, should not return
      would that man still be alive?"

      "Certainly not."

      "And when those trumpeters and the like have blown
      their trumpets does their breath return to them?"

      "No venerable sir, it doesn't."

      "Then why don't they die?"

      "I am not capable of arguing with you sir, pray tell me
      how it is."

      "There is no soul in the breath. These inhalations and
      exhalations are merely constituent powers of the bodily
      frame." Then the elder talked to him on the Abhidhamma
      and Anantakàya was satisfied with his explanation.

      Note: Thera (elder) is nowadays normally used only for bhikkhus of ten or more years standing
      but Nàgasena was only seven rains.

      ---------------

      #5. Then, after the monks had arrived at the palace and
      finished their meal, the king sat down on a low seat and
      asked, "What shall we discuss?"

      "Let our discussion be about the Dhamma."

      Then the king said, "What is the purpose, your
      reverence, of your going forth and what is the final goal at
      which you aim?"

      "Our going forth is for the purpose that this suffering
      may be extinguished and that no further suffering may
      arise; the complete extinction of grasping without
      remainder is our final goal."

      "Is it, venerable sir, for such noble reasons that
      everyone joins the Order?"

      "No. Some enter to escape the tyranny of kings,
      some to be safe from robbers, some to escape from debt
      and some perhaps to gain a livelihood. However, those
      who enter rightly do so for the complete extinction of
      grasping."

      ************
      yawares
    • Lukas
      Dear Yawares, Sadhu. Venerable Nagasena is so true. If he is so true, what our Lord would be. I like Venerable Nagasena so much. Do u remember when he gave a
      Message 2 of 14 , Oct 22 9:46 AM
        Dear Yawares,
        Sadhu. Venerable Nagasena is so true. If he is so true, what our Lord would be. I like Venerable Nagasena so much. Do u remember when he gave a dhamma talk to maha-upasika?

        Best wishes
        Lukas

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Members,
        >
        > I truly love/admire Bhikkhu Nagasena.
        >
        > **************
        >
        > The Debate Of King Milinda
        > [Edited by Bhikkhu Pesala]
        >
        > #4. So, Devamantiya, Anantakàya and Mankura went to
        > Nàgasena's hermitage to accompany the monks to the
        > palace. As they were walking along together Anantakàya
        > said to Nàgasena, "When, your reverence, I say, `Nàgasena'
        > what is that Nàgasena?"
        >
        > "What do you think that Nàgasena is?"
        >
        > "The soul, the inner breath, which comes and goes."
        >
        > "But if that breath, having gone out, should not return
        > would that man still be alive?"
        >
        > "Certainly not."
        >
        > "And when those trumpeters and the like have blown
        > their trumpets does their breath return to them?"
        >
        > "No venerable sir, it doesn't."
        >
        > "Then why don't they die?"
        >
        > "I am not capable of arguing with you sir, pray tell me
        > how it is."
        >
        > "There is no soul in the breath. These inhalations and
        > exhalations are merely constituent powers of the bodily
        > frame." Then the elder talked to him on the Abhidhamma
        > and Anantakàya was satisfied with his explanation.
        >
        > Note: Thera (elder) is nowadays normally used only for bhikkhus of ten or more years standing
        > but Nàgasena was only seven rains.
        >
        > ---------------
        >
        > #5. Then, after the monks had arrived at the palace and
        > finished their meal, the king sat down on a low seat and
        > asked, "What shall we discuss?"
        >
        > "Let our discussion be about the Dhamma."
        >
        > Then the king said, "What is the purpose, your
        > reverence, of your going forth and what is the final goal at
        > which you aim?"
        >
        > "Our going forth is for the purpose that this suffering
        > may be extinguished and that no further suffering may
        > arise; the complete extinction of grasping without
        > remainder is our final goal."
        >
        > "Is it, venerable sir, for such noble reasons that
        > everyone joins the Order?"
        >
        > "No. Some enter to escape the tyranny of kings,
        > some to be safe from robbers, some to escape from debt
        > and some perhaps to gain a livelihood. However, those
        > who enter rightly do so for the complete extinction of
        > grasping."
        >
        > ************
        > yawares
        >
      • Yawares Sastri
        Dear Lukas, All I found from yahoo search is the only story about Nagasena that I just posted this morning. If you find more about Thera Nagasena, please post
        Message 3 of 14 , Oct 22 4:03 PM
          Dear Lukas,

          All I found from yahoo search is the only story about Nagasena that I just posted this morning. If you find more about Thera Nagasena, please post it I would love to read.

          yawares
          > Dear Yawares,
          > Sadhu. Venerable Nagasena is so true. If he is so true, what our Lord would be. I like Venerable Nagasena so much. Do u remember when he gave a dhamma talk to maha-upasika?
          >
          > Best wishes
          > Lukas
          >
        • Lukas
          Dear Yawares, Sorry I am not able to do this since I will be off from now on for some time. This was a Dhamma talk Venerable Nagasena gave to maha-upasika, an
          Message 4 of 14 , Oct 23 7:11 PM
            Dear Yawares,
            Sorry I am not able to do this since I will be off from now on for some time. This was a Dhamma talk Venerable Nagasena gave to maha-upasika, an old Lady, very devoted to Buddha-Dhamma. She was old but she asked only for a Dhamma-talk. While Venerable Nagasena gave the Dhamma talk, he became instantly a Sotapanna and she got insight, ~nana. The arahat who was present there, delighted. He said, two great beings got realised by a pierce of one arrow. They were pierced by one arrow of understanding. We called this upasaka or upasika with great interest in Dhamma, maha-upasaka or maha-upasika, a Venerable Lay followers. This is on the beginning of Milindha-panha.

            Best wishes
            Lukas

            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Lukas,
            >
            > All I found from yahoo search is the only story about Nagasena that I just posted this morning. If you find more about Thera Nagasena, please post it I would love to read.
            >
            > yawares
            > > Dear Yawares,
            > > Sadhu. Venerable Nagasena is so true. If he is so true, what our Lord would be. I like Venerable Nagasena so much. Do u remember when he gave a dhamma talk to maha-upasika?
            > >
            > > Best wishes
            > > Lukas
            > >
            >
          • Herman
            Hi Yawares, ... Are any of us here up for the complete extinction of grasping? It s a rhetorical question only, because I know that the answer is a resounding
            Message 5 of 14 , Oct 24 1:22 AM
              Hi Yawares,

              On 23 October 2012 01:03, Yawares Sastri <yawares1@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Dear Members,
              >
              > I truly love/admire Bhikkhu Nagasena.
              >
              > **************
              >
              > <snip>


              >
              > #5. Then, after the monks had arrived at the palace and
              > finished their meal, the king sat down on a low seat and
              > asked, "What shall we discuss?"
              >
              > "Let our discussion be about the Dhamma."
              >
              > Then the king said, "What is the purpose, your
              > reverence, of your going forth and what is the final goal at
              > which you aim?"
              >
              > "Our going forth is for the purpose that this suffering
              > may be extinguished and that no further suffering may
              > arise; the complete extinction of grasping without
              > remainder is our final goal."
              >
              > "Is it, venerable sir, for such noble reasons that
              > everyone joins the Order?"
              >
              > "No. Some enter to escape the tyranny of kings,
              > some to be safe from robbers, some to escape from debt
              > and some perhaps to gain a livelihood. However, those
              > who enter rightly do so for the complete extinction of
              > grasping."
              >
              > ************
              > yawares
              >

              Are any of us here up for the complete extinction of grasping?

              It's a rhetorical question only, because I know that the answer is a
              resounding NO :-)

              Given that, I wonder why it is that we are doing this dhamma thing?

              --
              Cheers

              Herman


              I do not know what I do not know


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ken O
              Dear Herman we are doing the dhamma thing because we want to be out of the grasp, that is why we still here :-) cheers KC [Non-text portions of this message
              Message 6 of 14 , Oct 24 7:19 AM
                Dear Herman

                we are doing the dhamma thing because we want to be out of the grasp, that is why we still here :-)

                cheers
                KC


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Yawares Sastri
                Dear Lukas, Thank you very much for the story. Will you ever come back? yawares
                Message 7 of 14 , Oct 24 7:55 AM
                  Dear Lukas,
                  Thank you very much for the story. Will you ever come back?
                  yawares

                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Yawares,
                  > Sorry I am not able to do this since I will be off from now on for some time. This was a Dhamma talk Venerable Nagasena gave to maha-upasika, an old Lady, very devoted to Buddha-Dhamma. She was old but she asked only for a Dhamma-talk. While Venerable Nagasena gave the Dhamma talk, he became instantly a Sotapanna and she got insight, ~nana. The arahat who was present there, delighted. He said, two great beings got realised by a pierce of one arrow. They were pierced by one arrow of understanding. We called this upasaka or upasika with great interest in Dhamma, maha-upasaka or maha-upasika, a Venerable Lay followers. This is on the beginning of Milindha-panha.
                • Yawares Sastri
                  Dear Herman, I have the debate in full detail..very beautiful answer from Thera Nagasena...if you would like to read the detail I ll post it. A member @
                  Message 8 of 14 , Oct 24 8:05 AM
                    Dear Herman,

                    I have the debate in full detail..very beautiful answer from Thera Nagasena...if you would like to read the detail I'll post it. A member @ Sariputtadhamma asked me the same thing and I posted the full debate from Milidapanha...and he loved it.
                    yawares

                    --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Herman <hhofmeister@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Yawares,

                    > Are any of us here up for the complete extinction of grasping?
                    >
                    > It's a rhetorical question only, because I know that the answer is a
                    > resounding NO :-)
                    >
                    > Given that, I wonder why it is that we are doing this dhamma thing?
                    > > --
                    > Cheers
                    >
                    > Herman
                    >
                  • Ken H
                    Hi Herman, ... KH: If we ever have a moment of right understanding we are, at that moment, totally in favour of the complete extinction of grasping. Not at
                    Message 9 of 14 , Oct 24 11:55 PM
                      Hi Herman,

                      I can't resist a good rhetorical question:

                      -----
                      > H: Are any of us here up for the complete extinction of grasping?
                      -----

                      KH: If we ever have a moment of right understanding we are, at that moment, totally in favour of the complete extinction of grasping.

                      Not at other times, though.

                      -----
                      >H: It's a rhetorical question only, because I know that the answer is a resounding NO :-)
                      >
                      >Given that, I wonder why it is that we are doing this dhamma thing?
                      ----

                      KH: Each of us will have to answer that for himself. All too often people do the Dhamma thing (practice) out of grasping, but there is no excuse for that here. Here at DSG we are continually reminded that practice for the purpose of gaining something is not Dhamma practice at all. It is anti-Dhamma practice – going the wrong way!

                      Ken H
                    • Herman
                      Hi Ken O, ... Only speaking for myself, I can honestly say that I am not interested in a life without grasping, and that is borne out by what I do, day in, day
                      Message 10 of 14 , Oct 26 10:24 PM
                        Hi Ken O,

                        On 25 October 2012 01:19, Ken O <ashkenn2k@...> wrote:

                        > **
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear Herman
                        >
                        > we are doing the dhamma thing because we want to be out of the grasp, that
                        > is why we still here :-)
                        >
                        > Good to see still around.

                        Only speaking for myself, I can honestly say that I am not interested in a
                        life without grasping, and that is borne out by what I do, day in, day out,
                        again and again :-)

                        I rhetorically assumed that it was the same for everyone here, but perhaps
                        it is not the case.


                        cheers
                        > KC_._,___
                        >



                        --
                        Cheers

                        Herman


                        I do not know what I do not know


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Herman
                        Hi KenH, ... I think that is a very good answer. ... Yes, and that is me, down to a tee. I m all in favour of life - that means I much prefer the suffering
                        Message 11 of 14 , Oct 26 10:37 PM
                          Hi KenH,

                          On 25 October 2012 17:55, Ken H <kenhowardau@...> wrote:

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Herman,
                          >
                          > I can't resist a good rhetorical question:
                          >
                          > -----
                          > > H: Are any of us here up for the complete extinction of grasping?
                          > -----
                          >
                          > KH: If we ever have a moment of right understanding we are, at that
                          > moment, totally in favour of the complete extinction of grasping.
                          >
                          >
                          I think that is a very good answer.


                          > Not at other times, though.
                          >
                          >
                          Yes, and that is me, down to a tee. I'm all in favour of life - that means
                          I much prefer the suffering brought about by attachment, rather than the
                          void, seriously. Wrong understanding, I know. But who cares?


                          ----
                          > >H: It's a rhetorical question only, because I know that the answer is a
                          > resounding NO :-)
                          >
                          > >
                          > >Given that, I wonder why it is that we are doing this dhamma thing?
                          > ----
                          >
                          > KH: Each of us will have to answer that for himself. All too often people
                          > do the Dhamma thing (practice) out of grasping, but there is no excuse for
                          > that here. Here at DSG we are continually reminded that practice for the
                          > purpose of gaining something is not Dhamma practice at all. It is
                          > anti-Dhamma practice � going the wrong way!
                          >
                          >

                          Having perhaps caught a glimpse of other worlds, I'd rather be here with
                          you, even while you are wearing your DSG T-shirt, thank you very much :-).




                          > Ken H
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          --
                          Cheers

                          Herman


                          I do not know what I do not know


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Herman
                          Hi Yawares ... Thanks for your kind offer. I have the full text already, and also love it ... -- Cheers Herman I do not know what I do not know [Non-text
                          Message 12 of 14 , Oct 27 6:02 PM
                            Hi Yawares

                            On 25 October 2012 02:05, Yawares Sastri <yawares1@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            > Dear Herman,
                            >
                            > I have the debate in full detail..very beautiful answer from Thera
                            > Nagasena...if you would like to read the detail I'll post it. A member @
                            > Sariputtadhamma asked me the same thing and I posted the full debate from
                            > Milidapanha...and he loved it.
                            > yawares
                            >

                            Thanks for your kind offer. I have the full text already, and also love it
                            :-)



                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Cheers

                            Herman


                            I do not know what I do not know


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • sarah
                            Dear Yawares, ... ... S: I m appreciating all the Milinda debate extracts you re posting. Short extracts are fine. Or a long debate can always be posted in
                            Message 13 of 14 , Oct 27 11:44 PM
                              Dear Yawares,

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Yawares Sastri" <yawares1@...> wrote:

                              > I have the debate in full detail..very beautiful answer from Thera Nagasena...if you would like to read the detail I'll post it.
                              ...
                              S: I'm appreciating all the Milinda debate extracts you're posting. Short extracts are fine. Or a long debate can always be posted in parts. I've always enjoyed these passages and like to read them again as you post them.

                              You asked about our trip to Bangkok, I think? Jon lived there in the 70s for many years and we always go at least a couple of times a year to spend time with Ajahn Sujin and other Dhamma friends. We used to also go to nice beaches, but haven't done so for a while (as we live on a beach in Australia). I've never been much interested in sight-seeing or shopping, so avoid these if I can:-)

                              We'll be in Thailand for most of January as I've mentioned on DSG - 3 mini-trips with A.Sujin and Dhamma friends, including several from DSG. Let us know if you'll be in Thailand at this time - it would be nice to meet you and Tep.

                              Metta

                              Sarah
                              =====
                            • Yawares Sastri
                              Dear Sarah, Thank you very much for reading my Milindapanha. I and Tep will not go to Thailand anymore, our moms/dads passed away years ago. Tep had hard time
                              Message 14 of 14 , Oct 28 5:35 AM
                                Dear Sarah,

                                Thank you very much for reading my Milindapanha.

                                I and Tep will not go to Thailand anymore, our moms/dads passed away years ago. Tep had hard time to fly 24 hrs flight-time to Bangkok, his long legs didn't like small space.

                                You're so lucky to live near the beach and Australia is much closer to Thailand than USA to Bangkok.

                                Sincerely,
                                yawares


                                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Yawares,

                                > S: I'm appreciating all the Milinda debate extracts you're posting.
                                >
                                We'll be in Thailand for most of January as I've mentioned on DSG - 3 mini-trips with A.Sujin and Dhamma friends, including several from DSG. Let us know if you'll be in Thailand at this time - it would be nice to meet you and Tep.
                                >
                                > Metta
                                >
                                > Sarah
                                > =====
                                >
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