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What makes deeds kusala or akusala (was, Re: Kenh1)

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  • jonoabb
    Hi Rob E (125661) ... J: I have not been saying that akusala kamma patha is simply and purely a mental state. Most akusala kamma patha does manifest as
    Message 1 of 404 , Aug 3, 2012
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      Hi Rob E

      (125661)
      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Jon.
      >
      > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" <jonabbott@> wrote:
      >
      > > J: To my understanding, when the texts speak of killing, stealing, unlawful sexual intercourse, etc., they are speaking of the akusala kamma patha of that name and not of conventional actions that may appear to correspond to those akusala kamma patha.
      >
      > RE: I can understand how sexual desire or intention could be a mental state, but I do not see how "unlawful sexual intercourse," which is a physical kamma patha, could possibly be reduced to a mental state alone. I understand that you see it that way, but can you explain how "unlawful sexual intercourse" arises as a dhamma rather than as an act between conventional bodies in the world?
      > ===============

      J: I have not been saying that akusala kamma patha is simply and purely a mental state. Most akusala kamma patha does manifest as (conventional) action through body or speech.

      But in terms of the dhammas spoken of by the Buddhda, conventional acts are only namas and rupas, regardless of whether the act is one that forms part of kamma patha or is an act such as brushing one's teeth or reading/writing a message on the list.

      However, of all the dhammas involved in an act of kamma patha, it is the mental factor of intention that, as kamma condition, conditions the vipaka/result, namely, the future experience of a pleasant or unpleasant object.

      Only cetana can condition vipaka; rupas cannot.

      Jon
    • sarah
      Hi Rob E, ... ... S: Yes and there are gross rupas, such as the sense objects referred to above and subtle rupas, not readily apparent. There are also
      Message 404 of 404 , Oct 21, 2012
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        Hi Rob E,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Robert E" <epsteinrob@...> wrote:

        > > S: Apart from 7 "gross" rupas experienced through the sense doors (i.e visible object, sound, odor, taste, solidity, temperature and motion), any other rupas can only be experienced through the mind door.
        >
        >R: That is interesting - doesn't quite make sense to me, as my concept of rupas has always been somewhat physicalized. But I guess that rupas can be concrete and yet somewhat removed from what we normally think of as physical.
        ...
        S: Yes and there are gross rupas, such as the sense objects referred to above and subtle rupas, not readily apparent. There are also 'concrete' rupas and 'non-concrete' rupas. The intimations and space are 'non-concrete' rupas.
        >
        > > Some of these are "sabhava" which have their own characteristics which can be discerned, while others are "asabhava" which means they don't arise directly from the primary rupas but are attributes or dependent on other rupas, such as space which separates kalapas of rupas and depends on those kalapas.
        ...
        >R: So space for instance is relative to the properties of the arising kalapas, while others are more independently arisen.
        ...
        S: All rupas depend on the 4 primary rupas and the asabhava rupas such as space, depend on the arising of various kalapas for their arising in between these kalapas.

        This just shows the intricacy of dhammas, how there are so many different 'elements' or realities arising and falling away, dependent on various conditions. No people, no things at all.
        ...
        .....
        > > S: The kamma is the cetana accompanying the citta. When there is harsh speech, for example, the citta conditions the speech intimation group or rupas (numerous times, of course) and the meaning is conveyed.
        >
        >R: Okay, so the intensity, one could say, of the cetana, will be expressed through the intensity of the "harsh speech," for instance. The harsh speech represents the intention of the citta, but does not itself cause additional kamma.
        ...
        S: Right. Of course that "harsh speech" may sound very gentle or be given in just a whisper. Terrorists can have very sweet-sounding voices. It's the intensity of the anger or other akusala at that time.
        ...
        >Yet it is hard to accept that the killing of another being, for instance, has only the significance in terms of kamma of expressing the kamma already created by the cetana, and that there is no additional "penalty" for the carrying out of the act of violence.
        ...
        S: The 'penalty' is in the result that follows and in the accumulated tendency for such kinds of cetana. Very dangerous indeed.
        ...
        >R: Is that in fact true, that the kamma is all carried by the cetana, and that the actual killing does not add to the degree of the kamma?
        ....
        S: Yes, the kamma is the accumulation of cetana to that degree. When it is strong enough to perform such a deed, the kamma is 'heaped up' in such a way, ready to lead to more deeds with ever greater results in lives to come.
        ....

        >R: Can the speech intimation rupa be discerned/experienced? And if so, by whom [speaker or recipient] and how?
        ...
        S: We can think about and speculate about intentions and intimations, but the speech intimation rupa itself is a very subtle rupa, an asabhava rupa, not readily experienced or known.

        Metta

        Sarah
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