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Re: Self-Correction Re: [dsg] Khandhas - audio extract KK 2011

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  • sarah abbott
    Dear Howard & Alex, ... S: Yes, meanings of a Pali word, not an English one Let s look at SN 48 (Bodhi transl): At Saavatthii. Bhikkhus, I will teach you
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 1, 2012
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      Dear Howard & Alex,
      >________________________________
      > From: "upasaka@..." <upasaka@...>
      --------------------------
      >HCW:
      >Yes, that is the main reading, namely that of
      >mass/bulk/category/group/collection. However, I have seen a secondary meaning  given in the PTS
      >dictionary (that I looked up an hour or so ago) that also  applies 'khandha' to
      >the *members* of a group. So, that usage is acceptable as  well, and I stand
      >corrected on this. (It would not be normal English usage, but  we are
      >dealing with meanings of a Pali word, not an English one.)
      >----------------------------------------------------------


      S: Yes, "meanings of a Pali word, not an English one"

      Let's look at SN 48 (Bodhi transl):

      "At Saavatthii. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that........

      'And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate.'"

      [S: in other words, any past rupa is rupa khandha, any future rupa is rupa khandha, any rupa arising now is rupa khandha and so on. Each rupa shares the characteristics of being rupa with each other rupa, therefore each one is rupa khandha.]

      " 'Whatever kind of feeling there is....perception....volitional formations... whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.' "

      [S: Again, any kind of feeling is vedana khandha. Pleasant feeling is vedana khandha, unpleasant feeling, past feeling, subtle feeling.....each one vedana khandha. Same for different perceptions, other cetasikas or kinds of consciousness. Seeing is vinnana khandha, hearing, smelling, thinking - each kind of citta is vinnana khandha, sharing the nature of vinnana/citta with each other one.]

      "' And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present.....far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging.' "

      [S: If a past rupa, such as a past visible object, was clung to, it was upadana khandha. If visible object or sound now is clung to, it is upadana khandha. Here the text is referring to realities, rupas which are the objects of attachment, not to "categories" or "groups". It means any kind of rupa at all, any rupa khandha. The same applies to all other kinds of khandhas.]

      Metta

      Sarah
      =====
    • truth_aerator
      Dear Sarah, I believe that rupa is included in rupakhandha but is not exactly the same thing. Khandha is a category that includes different types of rupa
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 1, 2012
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        Dear Sarah,

        I believe that rupa is included in rupakhandha but is not exactly the same thing.

        Khandha is a category that includes different types of rupa (past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near).


        >
        > S: Yes, "meanings of a Pali word, not an English one"
        >
        > Let's look at SN 48 (Bodhi transl):
        >
        > "At Saavatthii. 'Bhikkhus, I will teach you the five aggregates and the five aggregates subject to clinging. Listen to that........
        >
        > 'And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate.'"
        >
        > [S: in other words, any past rupa is rupa khandha, any future rupa is rupa khandha, any rupa arising now is rupa khandha and so on. Each rupa shares the characteristics of being rupa with each other rupa, therefore each one is rupa khandha.]
        >


        With best wishes,

        Alex
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Alex, ... N: Yes. But each one of these is past, future, etc. We always have to consider ruupa now, appearing at this moment, be it hardness, sound, etc.
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 1, 2012
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          Dear Alex,
          Op 1-aug-2012, om 18:39 heeft truth_aerator het volgende geschreven:

          > I believe that rupa is included in rupakhandha but is not exactly
          > the same thing.
          >
          > Khandha is a category that includes different types of rupa (past,
          > future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior
          > or superior, far or near).
          -------
          N: Yes. But each one of these is past, future, etc. We always have to
          consider ruupa now, appearing at this moment, be it hardness, sound,
          etc. It arises and falls away, it is present now, and after it has
          fallen away it is past. When it has not arisen yet and there are
          conditions, it will arise, it is future. It is internal or external.
          We do not think of abstractions but always of what appears now, in
          daily life. One ruupa at a time, and it is khandha. If we do not see
          khandhas has an abstract classification I think that there need not
          be any problem. What do you think?
          ------
          Nina.

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        • Alex
          Dear Nina, Sarah, all, I believe that one has to clarify the necessity of phenomena having to be anicca,dukkha, anatta. These can never be learned through
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 2, 2012
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            Dear Nina, Sarah, all,

            I believe that one has to clarify the necessity of phenomena having to be anicca,dukkha, anatta. These can never be learned through quantitative observation. Only as structural principle in a sense of "all triangles have three sides". One doesn't have to observe all infinity of triangles in order to realize that what makes triangle is the fact that it has to have three sides.
             

            >Nina: "We always have to consider ruupa now, appearing at this moment, be it hardness, >sound, etc. "
            >==================

            Sure, as a practice of some sort. Rather than to react in a lobha/dosa/moha, why not respond in  good, kusala way.

            With best wishes,



            Alex

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