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2007 audio - 1. experiencing impermanence

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  • sarah abbott
    Dear Friends, Last night I was listening to a good audio discussion, 2007-07-04A-a (www.dhammastudygroup.org) with Ajahn Sujin, Han, Ven Pannabahulo, Ven
    Message 1 of 17 , May 11, 2012
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      Dear Friends,

      Last night I was listening to a good audio discussion, 2007-07-04A-a (www.dhammastudygroup.org) with Ajahn Sujin, Han, Ven Pannabahulo, Ven Dhammanando, ourselves and others in Bangkok. It includes a good discussion onVinaya, sila and satipatthana relevant to my discussion with Rob E. Anyway, lots of good material, so I've decided to transcribe a snippet each day until I find the relevant part again.
      *****

      Ven P: Last night I was engaged in a very strange experiment. I kept closing my eyes and looking at the reflection of the blind on the wall and I was just aware that I couldn't see, I can not experience the arising and ceasing of the rupa and all I can do within myself is to notice i that at the moment I'm seeing and at the next moment I'm thinking, but not actually experience any arising or falling during the moment of seeing....

      KS: What about the usual daily life and there can be  moment of beginning to understand or think about the true nature of realities. That's all. It's impossible to directly experience the arising and falling of anything right now because it has to be the developed pa~n~naa because even [though] it's true that seeing arises and falls away, no one can experience that, only the developed pa~n~naa from hearing, considering, until it's time to really understand reality - very little from moment to moment - because now avijjaa, wrong understanding and akusala follow the seeing, the hearing all the time. As it's like this, so as pa~n~naa develops, it has to be like this. It can not be different from this. Very natural.
      *****

      Metta

      Sarah
      ====

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Sarah, thank you for the audio transcript. ... N: I remember hearing on a recording that the understanding can be only very little at a time. There may be
      Message 2 of 17 , May 11, 2012
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        Dear Sarah,
        thank you for the audio transcript.
        Op 11-mei-2012, om 10:40 heeft sarah abbott het volgende geschreven:

        > until it's time to really understand reality - very little from
        > moment to moment - because now avijjaa, wrong understanding and
        > akusala follow the seeing, the hearing all the time. As it's like
        > this, so as pa~n~naa develops, it has to be like this. It can not
        > be different from this. Very natural.
        ------
        N: I remember hearing on a recording that the understanding can be
        only very little at a time. There may be some weak awareness, but it
        is followed by thinking, naming, etc. This is a good point to pursue
        when you are in Bgk. There may be doubts: hardness is experienced
        through the bodysense, vipaakacitta, but it is very short. Usually it
        just passes, but sometimes there may be some consideration of
        hardness. As Kh Sujin said, we have to become familiar with all kinds
        of characteristics. We cannot expect clear understanding yet.
        ------
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sarah abbott
        Dear Friends **** Ven P: So should we keep reminding ourselves...? KS: I think that when it s time to understand, to think about, to read or to hear Dhamma,
        Message 3 of 17 , May 11, 2012
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          Dear Friends

          ****
          Ven P: So should we keep reminding ourselves...?


          KS: I think that when it's time to understand, to think about, to read or to hear Dhamma, it's the development of understanding by itself and when it's time for akusala to arise by conditions, no one can stop its arising.

          So right understanding can understand the difference between moments of kusala and akusala as all are not self. There are conditions for each reality's arising and one will be relaxed because there is no control.

          Just understand whatever appears as conditioned reality.
          *****

          Metta

          Sarah
          ======
        • truth_aerator
          Dear Sarah, all, ... Aren t all dhammas already anicca? Don t we already experience anicca? So what is the use of developing something for a long time to see
          Message 4 of 17 , May 13, 2012
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            Dear Sarah, all,

            >KS:... It's impossible to directly experience the arising and >falling of anything right now because it has to be the developed >pa~n~naa because even [though] it's true that seeing arises and >falls away, no one can experience that, only the developed pa~n~naa >from hearing, considering, until it's time to really understand >reality - very little from moment to moment - because now avijjaa, >wrong understanding and akusala follow the seeing, the hearing all >the time. As it's like this, so as pa~n~naa develops, it has to be >like this. It can not be different from this. Very natural.
            >================

            Aren't all dhammas already anicca? Don't we already experience anicca?

            So what is the use of developing something for a long time to see what is already inherent in experience? Why try to make water wet?

            >KS: no one can experience that.

            Of course. Anatta. Ignorance of anatta doesn't create atta. Nothing to do to create "no one". Water is still wet. Here is benefit of silent, non-conceptual awareness in all of daily life. There is experience of real reality as opposed to concepts in smart books.

            Developing panna to see anicca, etc, is like long time of accumulations and developing wisdom to find hay in thee haystack.

            With best wishes,

            Alex
          • upasaka@aol.com
            Hi, Alex (and Sarah) - In a message dated 5/13/2012 10:41:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@yahoo.ca writes: Dear Sarah, all, ... anything right
            Message 5 of 17 , May 13, 2012
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              Hi, Alex (and Sarah) -

              In a message dated 5/13/2012 10:41:55 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
              truth_aerator@... writes:

              Dear Sarah, all,

              >KS:... It's impossible to directly experience the arising and >falling of
              anything right now because it has to be the developed >pa~n~naa because
              even [though] it's true that seeing arises and >falls away, no one can
              experience that, only the developed pa~n~naa >from hearing, considering, until
              it's time to really understand >reality - very little from moment to moment -
              because now avijjaa, >wrong understanding and akusala follow the seeing,
              the hearing all >the time. As it's like this, so as pa~n~naa develops, it
              has to be >like this. It can not be different from this. Very natural.
              >================

              Aren't all dhammas already anicca? Don't we already experience anicca?

              So what is the use of developing something for a long time to see what is
              already inherent in experience? Why try to make water wet?
              --------------------------------------------------------
              HCW:
              DO we directly experience impermanence, or do we infer it by thinking?
              I believe it is by thinking, CORRRECT thinking, IMO, but still thinking.
              ------------------------------------------------------



              >KS: no one can experience that.

              Of course. Anatta. Ignorance of anatta doesn't create atta. Nothing to do
              to create "no one". Water is still wet. Here is benefit of silent,
              non-conceptual awareness in all of daily life. There is experience of real reality
              as opposed to concepts in smart books.
              ----------------------------------------------------
              HCW:
              Correct concepts, however, can cast light on where to look. Knowing
              conceptually that no conditioned phenomena last directs attention to
              cessation.
              --------------------------------------------------



              Developing panna to see anicca, etc, is like long time of accumulations
              and developing wisdom to find hay in thee haystack.
              ---------------------------------------------------
              HCW:
              If one doesn't look carefully enough, only the stack might be seen,
              and not its component straws. (Conversely, of course, looking only at
              individual straws and not their interrelationship may cause us to miss the stack!)
              ---------------------------------------------------



              With best wishes,

              Alex
              ====================================
              With metta,
              Howard

              Seamless Interdependence

              /A change in anything is a change in everything/

              (Anonymous)


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert E
              Hi Alex. ... It seems to me that in this case you have constructed a straw man out of this hay. It sounds like you re saying that the Dhamma isn t necessary,
              Message 6 of 17 , May 13, 2012
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                Hi Alex.

                --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Sarah, all,
                >
                > >KS:... It's impossible to directly experience the arising and >falling of anything right now because it has to be the developed >pa~n~naa because even [though] it's true that seeing arises and >falls away, no one can experience that, only the developed pa~n~naa >from hearing, considering, until it's time to really understand >reality - very little from moment to moment - because now avijjaa, >wrong understanding and akusala follow the seeing, the hearing all >the time. As it's like this, so as pa~n~naa develops, it has to be >like this. It can not be different from this. Very natural.
                > >================
                >
                > Aren't all dhammas already anicca? Don't we already experience anicca?
                >
                > So what is the use of developing something for a long time to see what is already inherent in experience? Why try to make water wet?
                >
                > >KS: no one can experience that.
                >
                > Of course. Anatta. Ignorance of anatta doesn't create atta. Nothing to do to create "no one". Water is still wet. Here is benefit of silent, non-conceptual awareness in all of daily life. There is experience of real reality as opposed to concepts in smart books.
                >
                > Developing panna to see anicca, etc, is like long time of accumulations and developing wisdom to find hay in thee haystack.

                It seems to me that in this case you have constructed a straw man out of this hay. It sounds like you're saying that the Dhamma isn't necessary, because we already experience reality, so why bother developing wisdom? I'm sure that's not what you mean, so I am not sure what your point is. Sure, water is wet, but if you don't jump in and experience the water directly, that is just a story about water, not an experience. The idea is that we need to "get" the truth of impermanence and no-self, and see that our attachment is the source of suffering. We already know all that theoretically, but it doesn't count for much most of the time. When it hits us directly that is a moment of insight. Insight and knowing the story are not the same thing. The Dhamma teaches what to look for, and meditation [or whatever form of development one practices] develops the ability to see and understand directly what has been talked about. Then we can see what is worth attaching to and detaching from and let go.

                Best,
                Rob E.

                - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              • truth_aerator
                Hello Howard, RobertE, all, ... So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never experience other bad things due to impermanence, etc) is not to think
                Message 7 of 17 , May 14, 2012
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                  Hello Howard, RobertE, all,

                  >--------------------------------------------------------
                  >HCW: DO we directly experience impermanence, or do we infer it by >thinking? I believe it is by thinking, CORRRECT thinking, IMO, but >still thinking.
                  >===========----------------------------------------------

                  So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never experience other bad things due to impermanence, etc) is not to think about impermanence?

                  Even if one has no theoretic knowledge of it, I believe one still experiences it. One doesn't need to know theory to experience water being water. Water is already wet, whether we know it or not. We may not be able to explain to others, but experience is still there.

                  What is wrong are wrong views about permanence. It seems that non-conceptual meditation would remove the obscurations to seeing reality as it is.

                  IMHO.
                  With metta,
                  Alex
                • upasaka@aol.com
                  Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/14/2012 2:47:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@yahoo.ca writes: Hello Howard, RobertE, all, ... thinking. ... So
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 14, 2012
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                    Hi, Alex -

                    In a message dated 5/14/2012 2:47:29 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                    truth_aerator@... writes:

                    Hello Howard, RobertE, all,

                    >--------------------------------------------------------
                    >HCW: DO we directly experience impermanence, or do we infer it by
                    >thinking? I believe it is by thinking, CORRRECT thinking, IMO, but >still
                    thinking.
                    >===========----------------------------------------------

                    So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never experience other bad
                    things due to impermanence, etc) is not to think about impermanence?
                    --------------------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    Sorry, but that is a great example of illogic. Your conclusion bears
                    no relation to your premisses.
                    ------------------------------------------------



                    Even if one has no theoretic knowledge of it, I believe one still
                    experiences it. One doesn't need to know theory to experience water being water.
                    Water is already wet, whether we know it or not. We may not be able to
                    explain to others, but experience is still there.
                    ---------------------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    Is there a far side of the moon, Alex? How do you know it? By
                    experience or inference?
                    -----------------------------------------------------



                    What is wrong are wrong views about permanence. It seems that
                    non-conceptual meditation would remove the obscurations to seeing reality as it is.
                    ----------------------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    I believe that high wisdom may directly observe cessation, but for us
                    it is a matter of after-the-fact comparison by thinking.
                    ------------------------------------------------



                    IMHO.
                    -----------------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    LOL! Yeah, me too!
                    ------------------------------------------------


                    With metta,
                    Alex
                    ==================================
                    With metta,
                    Howard

                    Seamless Interdependence

                    /A change in anything is a change in everything/

                    (Anonymous)




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • truth_aerator
                    Hello Howard all, ... My point was that all experience is anicca and that we cannot stop it, even if we try to think otherwise. Whether you label pain as pain
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 14, 2012
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                      Hello Howard all,

                      >Alex: So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never >experience other bad things due to impermanence, etc) is not to >think about impermanence?
                      > --------------------------------------------------
                      >HCW:Sorry, but that is a great example of illogic. Your conclusion >bears no relation to your premisses.
                      > ------------------------------------------------


                      My point was that all experience is anicca and that we cannot stop it, even if we try to think otherwise. Whether you label pain as pain doesn't alter the fact that it feels as pain even without thinking in English.


                      > ---------------------------------------------------
                      >HCW:Is there a far side of the moon, Alex? How do you know it? By
                      >experience or inference?
                      >-----------------------------------------------------

                      This doesn't fit what I wanted to say. Anicca happens with each and every experience, seeing other side of the moon doesn't.


                      >----------------------------------------------------
                      >HCW:I believe that high wisdom may directly observe cessation, but >for us it is a matter of after-the-fact comparison by thinking.
                      >------------------------------------------------

                      Is high wisdom needed to see that when you read this the previous sights (of letters and words) cease as new ones (new letters, words) arise?


                      Just some thoughts that I am considering...


                      With metta,

                      Alex
                    • normand j
                      Hi Alex You wrote:So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never experience other bad things due to impermanence, etc) is not to think about
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 14, 2012
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                        Hi Alex
                        You wrote:So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never experience other bad
                        things due to impermanence, etc) is not to think about impermanence?


                        Loong's comment: I am 65 years old ,had my 5th heart operation,have 8 tares in the knees,atheriosclorosis of the brain.3 Months ago I had my 5th operation ,2 weeks later ,I joined a gym.

                        Before my last operation ,could not walk 100 feet. Now I can run 10 minutes full speed,still with my torn knees,which by the way do not
                        hurt because,I decided they would not hurt.

                        One cannot stop the aging physically, but with discipline,courage
                        living buddhism to it's fullest,can change the effects of aging.
                        People who meet me cannot beleive what my body went through ,but not my mind.ALL IS IN THE MIND.

                        With Respect
                        _/\_
                        loong






                        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hello Howard, RobertE, all,
                        >
                        > >--------------------------------------------------------
                        > >HCW: DO we directly experience impermanence, or do we infer it by >thinking? I believe it is by thinking, CORRRECT thinking, IMO, but >still thinking.
                        > >===========----------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never experience other bad things due to impermanence, etc) is not to think about impermanence?
                        >
                        > Even if one has no theoretic knowledge of it, I believe one still experiences it. One doesn't need to know theory to experience water being water. Water is already wet, whether we know it or not. We may not be able to explain to others, but experience is still there.
                        >
                        > What is wrong are wrong views about permanence. It seems that non-conceptual meditation would remove the obscurations to seeing reality as it is.
                        >
                        > IMHO.
                        > With metta,
                        > Alex
                        >
                      • upasaka@aol.com
                        Hi, Alex - In a message dated 5/14/2012 5:10:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, truth_aerator@yahoo.ca writes: Hello Howard all, ... other bad things due to
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 14, 2012
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                          Hi, Alex -

                          In a message dated 5/14/2012 5:10:39 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
                          truth_aerator@... writes:

                          Hello Howard all,

                          >Alex: So a great way to exist permanently (never age, never >experience
                          other bad things due to impermanence, etc) is not to >think about
                          impermanence?
                          > --------------------------------------------------
                          >HCW:Sorry, but that is a great example of illogic. Your conclusion >bears
                          no relation to your premisses.
                          > ------------------------------------------------

                          My point was that all experience is anicca and that we cannot stop it,
                          even if we try to think otherwise. Whether you label pain as pain doesn't
                          alter the fact that it feels as pain even without thinking in English.

                          > ---------------------------------------------------
                          >HCW:Is there a far side of the moon, Alex? How do you know it? By
                          >experience or inference?
                          >-----------------------------------------------------

                          This doesn't fit what I wanted to say. Anicca happens with each and every
                          experience, seeing other side of the moon doesn't.

                          >----------------------------------------------------
                          >HCW:I believe that high wisdom may directly observe cessation, but >for
                          us it is a matter of after-the-fact comparison by thinking.
                          >------------------------------------------------

                          Is high wisdom needed to see that when you read this the previous sights
                          (of letters and words) cease as new ones (new letters, words) arise?
                          -------------------------------------------------------------
                          HCW:
                          To *see* the cessation and arising, yes, high wisdom is needed. WE,
                          however, require thinking.
                          -------------------------------------------------------------



                          Just some thoughts that I am considering...
                          -----------------------------------------------------------
                          HCW:
                          Sure, we all do a lot of considering. Even better, I think, is to do a
                          lot of "watching"! ;-)
                          ---------------------------------------------------------



                          With metta,

                          Alex

                          =================================
                          With metta,
                          Howard

                          P. S. With regard to watching, do you ever watch "yourself" typing and
                          realize that there is no "you" doing it?!! (Really interesting! :-)

                          Seamless Interdependence

                          /A change in anything is a change in everything/

                          (Anonymous)



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • truth_aerator
                          Hello Howard, all, ... I do try to keep awareness throughout the day and occasionally there are interesting moments when there is feeling that body does
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 14, 2012
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                            Hello Howard, all,

                            >P. S. With regard to watching, do you ever watch "yourself" typing >and realize that there is no "you" doing it?!! (Really interesting!
                            >================


                            I do try to keep awareness throughout the day and occasionally there are interesting moments when there is feeling that body does everything by itself without there being Me. There were and occasionally do happen interesting experience when thoughts come and go
                            ***without feeling that I/Alex think them*** .

                            I do strongly recommend developing no-control awareness through ALL conscious moments (from the time you awaken to the time you fall asleep, during ALL daily activities).

                            With metta,

                            Alex
                          • sarah
                            Dear Alex, Thanks for reading the extracts. ... ... S: As others have said, dhammas are anicca but there is no knowing, no awareness of this. For example, does
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 16, 2012
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                              Dear Alex,

                              Thanks for reading the extracts.

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:

                              > Aren't all dhammas already anicca? Don't we already experience anicca?
                              ...
                              S: As others have said, dhammas are anicca but there is no knowing, no awareness of this.

                              For example, does it seem that there is light now? In fact, the only time there is any light experienced is at a moment when seeing consciousness experiences visible object. This is just one brief, impermanent citta in an eye-door process. When the subsequent bhavanga cittas arise, when the cittas in the many mind-door processes experience concepts, when the other sense door cittas arise, there is no light, no visible object seen at all.

                              Before there can be any understanding of any dhamma as anicca, there has to be the very clear understanding of those dhammas as realities - the rupas that don't experience anything and the namas which may experience - no self involved in anyway, just conditioned dhammas.
                              ...
                              >
                              >A: So what is the use of developing something for a long time to see what is already inherent in experience? Why try to make water wet?
                              ...
                              S: Actually, I think these are good questions.

                              Understanding has to be developed for a long time to see what is inherent in experience, what reality at this moment really is, because without hearing the Buddha's Teachings, without developing such understanding, all realities are hidden by the cloak of ignorance. It's not a matter of making water wet, but understanding what is here, what is arising and falling away anyway. Is it better to live in ignorance or with understanding? Moments of life when there's no understanding are really quite useless. In ignorance we look for beauty, we enjoy the sunsets, we grieve over losses, we take computers for existing. The Buddha taught the truth about life, about this moment for wisdom to see.
                              ...
                              > >KS: no one can experience that.
                              >
                              > Of course. Anatta. Ignorance of anatta doesn't create atta. Nothing to do to create "no one". Water is still wet. Here is benefit of silent, non-conceptual awareness in all of daily life. There is experience of real reality as opposed to concepts in smart books.
                              ....
                              S: The Buddha taught us in such detail because without a very firm intellectual right understanding, pariyatti, there cannot be any direct "non-conceptual awareness" at all. Satipatthana doesn't develop through silent observation, but through the hearing and very careful considering of realities appearing now.
                              ...
                              > Developing panna to see anicca, etc, is like long time of accumulations and developing wisdom to find hay in thee haystack.
                              ...
                              S: Yes, whilst not tripping up over strawmen in the haystack or thinking that hair-splitting is all there is to it:-))

                              "What do you think, Ananda: Which is harder to do, harder to master — to shoot arrows through a tiny keyhole without missing, one right after the other, or to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip?"[1]

                              "This, lord, is harder to do, harder to master — to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip."

                              "And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'
                              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.045.than.html

                              This is why it takes courage, patience and all the other paramis to develop with right understanding.

                              Metta

                              Sarah
                              =====
                            • truth_aerator
                              Dear Sarah, all, ... I believe that the hardest part is to encounter the True Dhamma and be able to understand it. There are plenty of suttas that tell the
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 16, 2012
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                                Dear Sarah, all,

                                Thank you for your other replies. Here is my comment about this sutta:

                                >"And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who >pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; etc...
                                >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.045.than.html
                                >==============================================

                                I believe that the hardest part is to encounter the True Dhamma and be able to understand it.

                                There are plenty of suttas that tell the Awakening can occur very quickly. In fact there are no early suttas that talk about necessity of having to undergo many many lives to become sotapanna.


                                "And what, friend Sariputta, is the cause, what is the reason, why some beings do become totally unbound in the present life?" - AN4.179
                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.179.than.html


                                Arhatship can occur in this life. Also in MN85 the Buddha has said that He could make a good disciple achieve awakening within one day. Satipatthana sutta promises Arhatship in 7 days if it is properly developed. In SN39.x it says that it would take no long time to achieve Awakening. In SN25.x proper understanding or confidence in anicca would make one Sotapanna before dying in this life. Etc etc.

                                So I am interested in deep investigation of what anicca really means and how not to mis-perceive it.


                                With metta,

                                Alex
                              • sarah
                                Dear Nina & all, ... .... S: No need to wait for Bgk! Now there is hardness, visible object, other realities that are experienced. There can be awareness
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 21, 2012
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                                  Dear Nina & all,

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                                  > >S: " until it's time to really understand reality - very little from
                                  > > moment to moment - because now avijjaa, wrong understanding and
                                  > > akusala follow the seeing, the hearing all the time. As it's like
                                  > > this, so as pa~n~naa develops, it has to be like this. It can not
                                  > > be different from this. Very natural."
                                  > ------
                                  > N: I remember hearing on a recording that the understanding can be
                                  > only very little at a time. There may be some weak awareness, but it
                                  > is followed by thinking, naming, etc. This is a good point to pursue
                                  > when you are in Bgk.
                                  ....
                                  S: No need to wait for Bgk! Now there is hardness, visible object, other realities that are experienced. There can be awareness immediately and then there is no doubt. Even when there is thinking or naming, wrongly trying to grasp the reality even, there can be awareness immediately. Just dhammas, not self. "It has to be like this......".
                                  ...
                                  >There may be doubts: hardness is experienced
                                  > through the bodysense, vipaakacitta, but it is very short. Usually it
                                  > just passes, but sometimes there may be some consideration of
                                  > hardness. As Kh Sujin said, we have to become familiar with all kinds
                                  > of characteristics. We cannot expect clear understanding yet.
                                  > ------
                                  ....
                                  S: It doesn't matter at all if there are doubts - more dhammas that can be known now when they appear. Hardness, thinking, doubt, confusion - all kinds of characteristics as you say. Gradually the understanding develops and becomes clearer, yes, without any expectation!

                                  Always dhammas now to be known - or not known - Very natural!

                                  Metta

                                  Sarah
                                  =====
                                • Nina van Gorkom
                                  Dear Sarah, I like your answer: No need to wait for Bgk! Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 21, 2012
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                                    Dear Sarah,
                                    I like your answer: No need to wait for Bgk!
                                    Nina.
                                    Op 21-mei-2012, om 10:27 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven:

                                    > There may be some weak awareness, but it
                                    > > is followed by thinking, naming, etc. This is a good point to pursue
                                    > > when you are in Bgk.
                                    > ....
                                    > S: No need to wait for Bgk! Now there is hardness, visible object,
                                    > other realities that are experienced. There can be awareness
                                    > immediately and then there is no doubt.



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • sarah
                                    Dear Alex, ... .... S: Yes - especially to understand seeing, visible object and other realities now as anatta. ... .... S: it s impossible to understand or
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Jun 6, 2012
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                                      Dear Alex,

                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:

                                      > Thank you for your other replies. Here is my comment about this sutta:
                                      >
                                      > >"And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who >pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; etc...
                                      > >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn56/sn56.045.than.html
                                      > >==============================================
                                      >
                                      > I believe that the hardest part is to encounter the True Dhamma and be able to understand it.
                                      ....
                                      S: Yes - especially to understand seeing, visible object and other realities now as anatta.
                                      ....
                                      >
                                      > There are plenty of suttas that tell the Awakening can occur very quickly. In fact there are no early suttas that talk about necessity of having to undergo many many lives to become sotapanna.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > "And what, friend Sariputta, is the cause, what is the reason, why some beings do become totally unbound in the present life?" - AN4.179
                                      > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.179.than.html
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Arhatship can occur in this life. Also in MN85 the Buddha has said that He could make a good disciple achieve awakening within one day. Satipatthana sutta promises Arhatship in 7 days if it is properly developed. In SN39.x it says that it would take no long time to achieve Awakening. In SN25.x proper understanding or confidence in anicca would make one Sotapanna before dying in this life. Etc etc.
                                      >
                                      > So I am interested in deep investigation of what anicca really means and how not to mis-perceive it.
                                      ....
                                      S: it's impossible to understand or investigate "what anicca really means" unless there is the beginning to understand realities appearing now. Instead of thinking about how long it may or may not take, the practice has to come back to this moment, then it becomes apparent that it's not you or I who can decide anything. Just understand what appears now.

                                      Metta

                                      Sarah
                                      =====
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