Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Question on difference between Train of chittas and ordinary thoughts

Expand Messages
  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Prasad, ... N: At each moment a citta, mental moment, arises and falls away immediately. Cittas experience objects through the doorways of the eyes, and
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 4, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Prasad,
      Op 3-apr-2012, om 16:06 heeft Prasad Praturi het volgende geschreven:

      > I practice meditation taught by S N Goenka. I am also interested in
      > abhidhamma and studying now.
      > I have a naive question you may be able to clarify. About the
      > thoughts and Chitta-vithi ( series of 17 mind moments). Thoughts
      > are usually plays in our minds in normal time as well as meditation
      > times are largely about past experiences or future projections. How
      > they are related to Chitta-vithi explained in abhidhamma
      > commentariat literature?
      ------
      N: At each moment a citta, mental moment, arises and falls away
      immediately. Cittas experience objects through the doorways of the
      eyes, and the other senses in processes of cittas. The cittas that
      experience a sense object such as visible object or sound arise in a
      sense-door process of cittas. The number 17 indicates that one ruupa
      (such as visible object) lasts as long as seventeen moments of citta.
      After the sense-door process is over the object is experienced
      through the mind-door, in a mind-door process of cittas. After that
      there are other mind-door processes of cittas that think on account
      of the sense object experienced before. These processes proceed so
      fast that it all seems to occur in one moment.
      For example, just now, it seems that we can see people and we think
      long stories about them. In reality only visible object or colour is
      seen, but when it seems that we see people, alreday mind-door process
      cittas have arisen that think of people.
      -------

      > P: Thought is also seems to be an object to Chitta via mind door.
      > Where the thoughts playing?
      ------
      N: It is important to know the difference between paramattha dhammas,
      ultimate realities and concepts. Seeing is an ultimate reality, and
      so is colour. They each have their own characteristic that cannot be
      changed. We can give them other names in different languages, but
      their characteristics are unalterable. Seeing is always seeing no
      matter we name it seeing or in Thai 'hen'. Paramattha dhammas can be
      experienced one at a time through the six doors.
      Concepts such as people or table are objects of thought but they are
      not real in the ultimate sense. We think of persons and believe that
      they exist, but this is an illusion. What we take for a person is
      only citta, cetasika and ruupa that do not last at all. But our
      thoughts are playing as you say. They play around all the time and we
      live as it were in a dream, taking for real what is not real,
      believing that people exist and stay.
      What is taught in the Abhidhamma is also taught in the suttas, but
      the Abhidhamma gives more details, such as details about the
      processes of citta.
      -------
      >
      > P: Where is our memories of our past experiences ( in this life)
      > stored in terms of abhidhamma?
      ------
      N: There is no place where anything can be stored. There is a mental
      factor, cetasika, that is remembrance or sa~n~naa accompanying every
      citta. It marks and remembers or recognizes the object citta
      experiences, no matter it is an ultimate reality or a concept.
      Sa~n~naa is the condition that we recognize this or that person, or
      remember events of the past. Not "I" but sa~n~naa remembers.
      --------
      >
      > P:Where is sankaras or volitions are carried from Chitta to Chitta?
      -------
      N: Sa"nkhaarakkhandha includes not only kusala and akusala volitions,
      but also all other good and bad qualities. When we are generous and
      give something useful away, this good quality falls away immediately
      with the citta, but it is never lost. Since each citta is succeeded
      by a following citta this good quality is carried on from moment to
      moment. Also all bad inclinations are carried on. They are a
      condition for the arising again later on of kusala citta and akusala
      citta. We can verify this in our life.
      Kusala kamma and akusala kamma can bring about result, vipaaka, later
      on, also because they are accumulated from moment to moment. When it
      is the right time kamma can produce its corresponding result.
      If anything is not clear, do not hesitate to ask again. Your points
      are very essential.
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Prasad Praturi
      Dear Nina, Thanks for clarifications.. Suppose we stop all other 5 sense doors othe than mind... always thoughts appear at mind door. I am assuming chitta
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 4, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Nina, Thanks for clarifications.. Suppose we stop all other 5 sense doors othe than mind... always thoughts appear at mind door. I am assuming chitta moment (nama) and ordinary thought moment (is like Rupa) are distinct. is this corect understanding? Thought moment raises on the base of hadayavatthu... To raise this thought moment some trigger should happen. what is it? Previous kamma? Most of our thoughts have relationship to previous memory experiences.... Is this memory experiences are stored in brain as rupa??? So this pervious experience function as a trigger?? Only when thought moment is 17 chitta moment length ( like rupa moment length of 17 to register) then this thought moment regsiters and subsequent chitta moment trains continue many million times... so one knows that there is a continuous thought is playing on mind? who is cause to who? Chitta moments creating thought moments? Or Thought moments are creating chitta moments? Are (1) Chitta train is creating the thoughts (by current volition) one thought moment after the other to create a consistant thought or (2) Thoughts independently occuring at base of hadayavattu as a result of previous kamma volitions? ( so vipaka chittas are raising) RegardsPrasad
















        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Prasad, ... N: Ruupa is the dhamma that does not know anything, it is completely different from naama that experiences. But I know what you mean, you are
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 6, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Prasad,
          Op 4-apr-2012, om 13:42 heeft Prasad Praturi het volgende geschreven:
          > . Suppose we stop all other 5 sense doors othe than mind... always
          > thoughts appear at mind door. I am assuming chitta moment (nama)
          > and ordinary thought moment (is like Rupa) are distinct. is this
          > corect understanding?
          >
          -------
          N: Ruupa is the dhamma that does not know anything, it is completely
          different from naama that experiences. But I know what you mean, you
          are distinguishing experiences through the sensedoors and experiences
          through the mind-door. Perhaps we have to talk more on the subject of
          citta.
          In our life there are three paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika
          (mental factor accompanying citta such as feeling, attachment,
          generosity) and ruupa. I do not speak about nibbaana now. This is the
          fourth paramattha dhamma, the unconditioned element.

          Citta and cetasika are naama, they experience an object, and ruupa
          does not know anything. Ruupa can be object of citta, such as colour
          or sound, or it can be the doorway through which citta experiences an
          object: the eye-door, eardoor, and the other sense-doors.
          At this moment sound may appear and this shows that there is citta
          experiencing sound. Or when eating, flavour may appear, and this
          shows that there is citta experiencing flavour. If there were no
          citta nothing in this world could appear.
          Citta always experiences an object and it does so for an extremely
          short moment, no matter whether citta arises in a sense-door process
          and experiences sense objects, or whether it arises in a mind-door
          process and experiences different objects through the mind-door. I
          would not call experiences through the sense-doors ordinary thoughts.
          All cittas are naama, different from ruupa. All cittas experience an
          object, just for a moment.
          ------

          > P: Thought moment arises on the base of hadayavatthu...
          >
          ------
          N: We live in the plane of the five khandhas, the plane of naama and
          ruupa. Each citta must have a physical base, a place where it arises.
          The sense-cognitions of seeing, hearing etc. arise at the sense bases
          of eye, ear, etc. But all other cittas of that process arise at the
          ruupa called the heartbase. Thus, also cittas in sense-door processes
          other than the sense-cognitions of seeing etc. arise at the heart-
          base. For example, in the eye-door process seeing is preceded by the
          eye-door adverting-consciousness and this arises at the heartbase.
          Seeing itself arises at the eye-base, but it is followed by other
          cittas, receving-consciousness tec. that arise at the heartbase.
          --------
          > P: To raise this thought moment some trigger should happen. what is
          > it? Previous kamma? Most of our thoughts have relationship to
          > previous memory experiences....
          >
          ------
          N: You are wondering about the conditions for this or that thought.
          It depends what type of citta is thinking. Mostly akusala cittas are
          thinking. We like pleasant objects and dislike unpleasant objects.
          The latent tendencies of defilements condition such moments. They
          have been accumulated in each citta and go on from citta to citta.
          -------
          > P: Is this memory experiences are stored in brain as rupa???
          >
          ------
          N: It has nothing to do with ruupa, accumulated defilements are
          naama. They have nothing to do with the brain.
          -------
          > P: So this pervious experience function as a trigger?? Only when
          > thought moment is 17 chitta moment length ( like rupa moment length
          > of 17 to register) then this thought moment regsiters and
          > subsequent chitta moment trains continue many million times... so
          > one knows that there is a continuous thought is playing on mind?
          > who is cause to who? Chitta moments creating thought moments? Or
          > Thought moments are creating chitta moments?
          >
          ------
          N: Citta moments or thought moments are just cittas arising and
          falling away.
          ------
          > P: Are (1) Chitta train is creating the thoughts (by current
          > volition) one thought moment after the other to create a consistant
          > thought or (2) Thoughts independently occuring at base of
          > hadayavattu as a result of previous kamma volitions? ( so vipaka
          > chittas are raising)
          >
          ------
          N: Perhaps the word thoughts may create confusion. It helps to
          consider citta that experiences an object. Citta can be of four
          jaatis or classes: akusala, kusala, vipaaka (result of kamma) and
          kiriya, neither cause nor result. In a sense-door process there are
          kiriyacittas, vipaakacittas (like seeing or hearing), and then
          followed by the javanacittas that are either kusala or akusala. We do
          not need to think now of the heartbase, that complicates matters.
          Seeing is result of previous kamma. Vipaakacittas are the passive
          side of life. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are the active side of
          life. We cannot find out why we react with generosity or with
          attachment. We only know in general that such qualities are
          conditioned by former moments of generosity or attachment. We do not
          remember these and do not need to remember these, they may stem from
          former lives, long, long ago.
          What is important to understand: whatever arises does so because of
          conditions and it is anattaa. Also the fact that we are thinking in
          this way or that way at a given moment is conditioned, it is anattaa.
          We cannot trace back what happened in the past and this is not
          necessary for the understanding of anattaa.
          -----
          Nina.
        • Alex
          Hi Prasad, Nina and All, Thank you Prasad for asking these questions and thank you Nina for answering them. It clarifies a lot for me also.. Keep on asking,
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 6, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Prasad, Nina and All,

            Thank you Prasad for asking these questions and thank you Nina for
            answering them.
            It clarifies a lot for me also..

            Keep on asking, i'll be surfing along

            Metta and repect,
            Norbert

            2012/4/6 Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>

            > **
            >
            >
            > Dear Prasad,
            > Op 4-apr-2012, om 13:42 heeft Prasad Praturi het volgende geschreven:
            >
            > > . Suppose we stop all other 5 sense doors othe than mind... always
            > > thoughts appear at mind door. I am assuming chitta moment (nama)
            > > and ordinary thought moment (is like Rupa) are distinct. is this
            > > corect understanding?
            > >
            > -------
            > N: Ruupa is the dhamma that does not know anything, it is completely
            > different from naama that experiences. But I know what you mean, you
            > are distinguishing experiences through the sensedoors and experiences
            > through the mind-door. Perhaps we have to talk more on the subject of
            > citta.
            > In our life there are three paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika
            > (mental factor accompanying citta such as feeling, attachment,
            > generosity) and ruupa. I do not speak about nibbaana now. This is the
            > fourth paramattha dhamma, the unconditioned element.
            >
            > Citta and cetasika are naama, they experience an object, and ruupa
            > does not know anything. Ruupa can be object of citta, such as colour
            > or sound, or it can be the doorway through which citta experiences an
            > object: the eye-door, eardoor, and the other sense-doors.
            > At this moment sound may appear and this shows that there is citta
            > experiencing sound. Or when eating, flavour may appear, and this
            > shows that there is citta experiencing flavour. If there were no
            > citta nothing in this world could appear.
            > Citta always experiences an object and it does so for an extremely
            > short moment, no matter whether citta arises in a sense-door process
            > and experiences sense objects, or whether it arises in a mind-door
            > process and experiences different objects through the mind-door. I
            > would not call experiences through the sense-doors ordinary thoughts.
            > All cittas are naama, different from ruupa. All cittas experience an
            > object, just for a moment.
            > ------
            >
            > > P: Thought moment arises on the base of hadayavatthu...
            > >
            > ------
            > N: We live in the plane of the five khandhas, the plane of naama and
            > ruupa. Each citta must have a physical base, a place where it arises.
            > The sense-cognitions of seeing, hearing etc. arise at the sense bases
            > of eye, ear, etc. But all other cittas of that process arise at the
            > ruupa called the heartbase. Thus, also cittas in sense-door processes
            > other than the sense-cognitions of seeing etc. arise at the heart-
            > base. For example, in the eye-door process seeing is preceded by the
            > eye-door adverting-consciousness and this arises at the heartbase.
            > Seeing itself arises at the eye-base, but it is followed by other
            > cittas, receving-consciousness tec. that arise at the heartbase.
            > --------
            > > P: To raise this thought moment some trigger should happen. what is
            > > it? Previous kamma? Most of our thoughts have relationship to
            > > previous memory experiences....
            > >
            > ------
            > N: You are wondering about the conditions for this or that thought.
            > It depends what type of citta is thinking. Mostly akusala cittas are
            > thinking. We like pleasant objects and dislike unpleasant objects.
            > The latent tendencies of defilements condition such moments. They
            > have been accumulated in each citta and go on from citta to citta.
            > -------
            > > P: Is this memory experiences are stored in brain as rupa???
            > >
            > ------
            > N: It has nothing to do with ruupa, accumulated defilements are
            > naama. They have nothing to do with the brain.
            > -------
            > > P: So this pervious experience function as a trigger?? Only when
            > > thought moment is 17 chitta moment length ( like rupa moment length
            > > of 17 to register) then this thought moment regsiters and
            > > subsequent chitta moment trains continue many million times... so
            > > one knows that there is a continuous thought is playing on mind?
            > > who is cause to who? Chitta moments creating thought moments? Or
            > > Thought moments are creating chitta moments?
            > >
            > ------
            > N: Citta moments or thought moments are just cittas arising and
            > falling away.
            > ------
            > > P: Are (1) Chitta train is creating the thoughts (by current
            > > volition) one thought moment after the other to create a consistant
            > > thought or (2) Thoughts independently occuring at base of
            > > hadayavattu as a result of previous kamma volitions? ( so vipaka
            > > chittas are raising)
            > >
            > ------
            > N: Perhaps the word thoughts may create confusion. It helps to
            > consider citta that experiences an object. Citta can be of four
            > jaatis or classes: akusala, kusala, vipaaka (result of kamma) and
            > kiriya, neither cause nor result. In a sense-door process there are
            > kiriyacittas, vipaakacittas (like seeing or hearing), and then
            > followed by the javanacittas that are either kusala or akusala. We do
            > not need to think now of the heartbase, that complicates matters.
            > Seeing is result of previous kamma. Vipaakacittas are the passive
            > side of life. Kusala cittas and akusala cittas are the active side of
            > life. We cannot find out why we react with generosity or with
            > attachment. We only know in general that such qualities are
            > conditioned by former moments of generosity or attachment. We do not
            > remember these and do not need to remember these, they may stem from
            > former lives, long, long ago.
            > What is important to understand: whatever arises does so because of
            > conditions and it is anattaa. Also the fact that we are thinking in
            > this way or that way at a given moment is conditioned, it is anattaa.
            > We cannot trace back what happened in the past and this is not
            > necessary for the understanding of anattaa.
            > -----
            > Nina.
            >
            >
            >



            --
            Met liefdevolle vriendelijkheid en respect.
            With lovingkindness and respect.

            Norbert Jakaoemo


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Prasad Praturi
            Dear Nina, Thanks for clarifying. I just want to understand mind door process only. Suppose a person cutoff all five sense doors, still raging thoughts will go
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 6, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Nina,

              Thanks for clarifying. I just want to understand mind door process only. Suppose a person cutoff all five sense doors, still raging thoughts will go on in his mind. I want to understand between this thoghts ( raising and fallng) and chittas (raising and falling). This is not explained very clearly in abhidhamma literature. I do not want to use the words seeing etc. related to other sense doors.


              I have read your books on this subject, Bhikku bhodhis ... Comprehensive manual of abhidhamma, nandamalabhivamsa books, talks.... Several other material... I even went to look original Tripitaka ( ironically Chitta- vithi does not exist in any of the seven canonical books). Still I could not find my answer for exclusively mind door process ... Thought is being an object for Chitta....
              I mean ... This Thought process is not not subsequent process for other sense door object.

              Can you please explain this relationship sequence of chittas and sequence of thoghts in a person where other sense doors not working?

              Metta,
              Prasad



              To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
              From: vangorko@...
              <...>
              N: Ruupa is the dhamma that does not know anything, it is completely

              different from naama that experiences. But I know what you mean, you

              are distinguishing experiences through the sensedoors and experiences

              through the mind-door. Perhaps we have to talk more on the subject of

              citta.

              In our life there are three paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika

              (mental factor accompanying citta such as feeling, attachment,

              generosity) and ruupa. I do not speak about nibbaana now. This is the

              fourth paramattha dhamma, the unconditioned element.

              <...>
            • ptaus1
              Hi Prasad, ... If you haven t already looked, you might find earlier posts here on these topics useful - Useful Posts file has them organised under different
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 6, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Prasad,

                > Prasad: I even went to look original Tripitaka ( ironically Chitta- vithi does not exist in any of the seven canonical books). Still I could not find my answer for exclusively mind door process ... Thought is being an object for Chitta....


                If you haven't already looked, you might find earlier posts here on these topics useful - Useful Posts file has them organised under different topics:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts.htm

                There are several topics there that deal with citta processes - look into the topic "Processes if cittas". In particular, this post points where in the tipitaka are the cittas of the citta-vithi mentioned:

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/100920

                There are also other posts on mind-door processes etc

                Best wishes
                pt
              • sarah abbott
                Dear Prasad, I m glad to welcome you (a little late) to DSG and to read your interesting questions. You re obviously familiar with the Pali and Abhidhamma
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 8, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Prasad,

                  I'm glad to welcome you (a little late) to DSG and to read your interesting questions. You're obviously familiar with the Pali and Abhidhamma terms - may I ask where you live and have studied Dhamma?

                  I'm appreciating your helpful discussions with Nina.

                  >________________________________
                  > From: Prasad Praturi <ppraturi@...>
                  >.  Suppose we stop all other 5 sense doors othe than mind... 
                  ....
                  S: It would be nice to stop particular dhammas from arising at particular times, but is this really possible or doesn't it just depend on conditions what arises from moment to moment? 

                  Doesn't the Buddha's teaching on anatta indicate that there really is no self that can stop or start any dhammas at will?

                  Metta

                  Sarah
                  =====
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Prasad, ... N: When you are dreaming, you see in your dream landscapes, persons, and it really seems that you are actually seeing. Your eyes are closed
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 8, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Prasad,
                    Op 6-apr-2012, om 18:10 heeft Prasad Praturi het volgende geschreven:
                    > I just want to understand mind door process only. Suppose a person
                    > cutoff all five sense doors, still raging thoughts will go on in
                    > his mind. I want to understand between this thoghts ( raising and
                    > fallng) and chittas (raising and falling). This is not explained
                    > very clearly in abhidhamma literature. I do not want to use the
                    > words seeing etc. related to other sense doors.
                    >
                    -------
                    N: When you are dreaming, you see in your dream landscapes, persons,
                    and it really seems that you are actually seeing. Your eyes are
                    closed and there is no seeing. You are merely experiencing objects
                    through the mind-door. Because of sa~n~naa, remebrance, you have
                    thought associations with former experiences. When you wake up, all
                    these images are gone, they are no more.
                    Also when we are awake we have moments of dreaming, thinking of
                    things that are not really existing. For example, it seems that we
                    see people. But is this actual seeing, the experience of what is
                    visible through the eyesense? It is not. People cannot impinge on the
                    eyesense, only colour or visible object can. However, because of
                    associations with former experiences it seems that we see people.
                    Just as in a dream. Dreaming of what is not reality.
                    Another example. Long ago when in India, we were drinking tea in the
                    garden of our hotel. We suddenly heard march music. Jonothan remarked
                    that he had a mental image of people marching. This illustrates
                    again that we have thought associations with former experiences.
                    We are dreaming again of what is not reality. We see or hear
                    something and then we draw out long stories in our mind. They seem so
                    real. Thinking itself is real, it is citta that thinks, but the
                    objects it thinks about (you call these thoughts) are not real, they
                    are fabricated by citta.
                    > --------
                    > P: I have read your books on this subject.... I even went to look
                    > original Tripitaka ( ironically Chitta- vithi does not exist in any
                    > of the seven canonical books).
                    >
                    ------
                    N: As pt remarked, you could check U.P. that is useful posts and
                    these are in the files of the DSG organisation. You can go to the
                    files section. There is quite a lot in the Path of Discrimination.
                    All over in the suttas there are texts about the six doors.
                    -------
                    > P:Still I could not find my answer for exclusively mind door
                    > process ...
                    >
                    ------
                    N: The cittas of the mind-door process experience an object through
                    the mind-door and this can be ruupa, naama, or a concept that is not
                    real.
                    Dhammårammaùa, the sixth class of objects, can be experienced only
                    through the mind-door. It includes all objects other than the sense
                    objects. Dhammårammaùa can again be subdivided into six classes. They
                    are:

                    1 The five sense-organs (pasåda-rúpas)
                    2 The subtle rúpas (sukhuma-rúpas)
                    3 Citta
                    4 Cetasika
                    5 Nibbåna
                    6 Concepts and conventional terms (paññatti)
                    ------
                    You were looking for something that you will not find in the
                    teachings, that is, scientific explanations about thinking and
                    thoughts. The purpose of the teachings is showing anattaa of
                    realities. Teaching reality as different from what is not real in the
                    ultimate sense.
                    You find in the suttas also similes about a dream, that which is not
                    real.

                    Text Visuddhimagga, Ch XIV quotes KIndred Sayings: In detail [that
                    is, individually] matter should be regarded as a
                    lump of froth because it will not stand squeezing, feeling as a bubble
                    on water because it can only be enjoyed for an instant, perception as a
                    mirage because it causes illusion, formations as a plantain trunk
                    because it has no core, and consciousness as a conjuring trick because
                    it deceives (S.iii,140-42).

                    The Dispeller adds that citta is more changeable and appears more
                    briefly.
                    Just as an illusion deceives many people and causes them to see as a
                    jewel what is not a jewel, evenso citta that is without a core and
                    swift to change deceives people and makes them think that there is
                    one lasting citta at the time of coming, going, standing and sitting.
                    However, there is another citta during each of these postures. Thus
                    citta is like an illusion.
                    ---------
                    Why do you want to understand raging thoughts in your mind? We can
                    learn that there are only elements and that the objects of thinking
                    are of no importance, just like a mirage that you see in the desert.
                    When you come near it is gone. They deceive us. It is better to know
                    than not to know.
                    ------
                    Nina.




                    > Thought is being an object for Chitta....
                    > I mean ... This Thought process is not not subsequent process for
                    > other sense door object.
                    >
                    > Can you please explain this relationship sequence of chittas and
                    > sequence of thoghts in a person where other sense doors not working?
                    >
                    ---------



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Prasad Praturi
                    Dear Nina, Thanks again for clarification ... N: When you are dreaming, you see in your dream landscapes, persons, and it really seems that you are actually
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 8, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Nina,

                      Thanks again for clarification


                      -------------------------------

                      N: When you are dreaming, you see in your dream landscapes, persons,

                      and it really seems that you are actually seeing. Your eyes are

                      closed and there is no seeing. You are merely experiencing objects

                      through the mind-door. Because of sa~n~naa, remebrance, you have

                      thought associations with former experiences. When you wake up, all

                      these images are gone, they are no more.

                      <...>
                    • Prasad Praturi
                      Dear Sarah, Thanks for invitation. last few years I am living part time in Dallas, Texas and part time in Bangalore, India but next thursday onward i am moving
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 8, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Sarah, Thanks for invitation. last few years I am living part time in Dallas, Texas and part time in Bangalore, India but next thursday onward i am moving to Bangalore permanently. I mediatate regularly vipassana practice taught by shri SN Goenkaji in the tradition of U Ba Khin. You may be aware of it as observing sensations is the key to get to the root of our mind and purify it. it is not very encouraged to read so much abidhamma in this tradition. but no body discourage either. Goenkaji suggests theory and practice should go in a balanced way. (as much practice one do, one must learn that much theory and vice versa ...). Too much thery can become a hindrance as one become an intellectual. Somehow i got in touch with some group of people in a mahabhodi monastry, Bangalore, India... where regular abhidhamma classes and study held. Then I was so much interested last one year i go on collecting all the literature available in dhamma. I even bought entire tripithaka english transaltion from Plai text society. but only liitle i read... . So my questions are very naive... As a engineer, i got fascinated by dhammsanghani classification of dhammas (22 traids... 100 dyads) and pattana relationships demonsttrations using these sets. Also chiita-vithi process expalined in abhdidhamma sangraha amazed me. I have not learned pali .. But as being one of the indian languages (Telugu) I speak, which has sanskrit content... i can easily understand the meaning of some words.. (but not all!) Thank you and Nina for helping me to understand. Prasad


                        To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                        From: sarahprocterabbott@...
                        <...>
                        I'm glad to welcome you (a little late) to DSG and to read your interesting questions. You're obviously familiar with the Pali and Abhidhamma terms - may I ask where you live and have studied Dhamma?

                        <...>
                      • sarah
                        Dear Prasad, Thank you for your interesting and informative introduction. Dallas and Bangalore - two very different places, two very different cultures and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 12, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Prasad,

                          Thank you for your interesting and informative introduction. Dallas and Bangalore - two very different places, two very different cultures and yet, and yet - still just experiences through 6 doorways wherever we are! Still, many, many moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching with lots and lots of thinking in between.

                          I am familiar with the Goenka/U Ba Khin tradition. I first met Goenka himself in Bodh Gaya at the end of 1974 when I accompanied him and Munindra on a long walk. They were discussing Abhidhamma as it happens and I was just tagging along as a guest of Munindra's (who I was studying with at the time). A few months later, as it happens, I did a 10 day course with Goenka in Hyderabad. There were a few well-fed and well-dressed Indians and a few emaciated hippy-looking foreigners like myself:-) For me it was a welcome break in my third class train travel from Dharmsala down to the south of India from where I was taking the boat to Sri Lanka to stay in a monastery.

                          I think the technique may well have all sorts of health benefits as it did for Mr Goenka himself, but I think it leads people astray when it comes to understanding the Buddha's teachings. Instead of developing detachment at the present moment from whatever is conditioned, there is the intention and wish to focus on sensations. Rupas and Vedana are mixed up usually. Without a clear understanding of the distinction between namas and rupas when they arise now, there can never be an understanding of dhammas as anatta as I see it. The theory and practice have to be in accord. The practice has to be the development of understanding now of whatever dhamma appears.

                          Actually, I remember bringing up some of this points a little with Mr Goenka at the time, but he didn't wish to discuss them - he'd just suggest I go away and meditate some more!

                          So I'm very interested to hear about your Abhidhamma classes in Bangalore as well. It's good to read a little, consider and discuss - otherwise it can all be blind theory or academic study. I wonder if you've read Nina's book "Abhidhamma in Daily Life?" I found it really helpful when I first started reading the chapters in manuscript form soon after that retreat with Mr Goenka. In fact, beginning to read the first couple of chapters on namas and rupas and listening to some recordings of Ajahn Sujin talking about the experience of visible object or sound now, followed by all the conjuring up of stories leading to the ideas of people and things, led me to really appreciate that the Buddha's teachings are about anatta now - dhammas beyond anyone's control. I've never meditated (as commonly understood) since. Before that, I was a very serious meditator in the temple in Sri Lanka.

                          Your familiarity with Pali terms will be helpful for you here. I appreciate your interest in classifications and Patthana relationships. Again, we can get lost in the detail and forget that all the Teachings come down to the understanding of the presently arising dhammas now as anatta - mere elements that don't belong to anyone and are not in anyone's control. The understanding means no selection, no attachment to having any dhamma arise now - any dhamma can be the object of understanding now, depending on the accumulations for such.

                          From this point of view, whether you're at work as an engineer in Dallas or Bangalore, whether you're sitting quietly, whether you're with family and friends, there can be meditation, i.e. the development of understanding of seeing, visible object, thinking or any other presently appearing dhamma.

                          I've written more than I planned to do. I'll look forward to any further discussion on any of the points if they're of interest to you.

                          If you (or any other new members) have a photo to add to the Member Album to be found on the home-page, it's always nice to see them.

                          Metta

                          Sarah

                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Prasad Praturi <ppraturi@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Sarah, Thanks for invitation. last few years I am living part time in Dallas, Texas and part time in Bangalore, India but next thursday onward i am moving to Bangalore permanently. I mediatate regularly vipassana practice taught by shri SN Goenkaji in the tradition of U Ba Khin.
                          <...>
                        • Prasad Praturi
                          Dear Sarah, Thanks for the email. S: Thank you for your interesting and informative introduction. Dallas and Bangalore - two very different places, two very
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 12, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dear Sarah,

                            Thanks for the email.


                            S: Thank you for your interesting and informative introduction. Dallas and Bangalore - two very different places, two very different cultures and yet, and yet - still just experiences through 6 doorways wherever we are! Still, many, many moments of seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting and touching with lots and lots of thinking in between.
                            -------------------------------
                            P: Now I will be in Bangalore and Dhammagiri.... Yes.. lots and lots of thinking... That is my biggest hindrance...

                            ----------------------------------------------------------------



                            S: I think the technique may well have all sorts of health benefits as it did for Mr Goenka himself, but I think it leads people astray when it comes to understanding the Buddha's teachings.

                            -------------------------------------------------------------
                            P: Yes. it may be. ( but many belive).... continuous awareness of sensations and equanimity with realiazation of those changing nature (sampajanya) will lead to direct knowledge of annatta, dukka and anatta and final emancipationn eventually .... even without intellectually understanding a word in tripithka.
                            --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            S: Instead of developing detachment at the present moment from whatever is conditioned, there is the intention and wish to focus on sensations. Rupas and Vedana are mixed up usually. Without a clear understanding of the distinction between namas and rupas when they arise now, there can never be an understanding of dhammas as anatta as I see it.

                            The theory and practice have to be in accord. The practice has to be the development of understanding now of whatever dhamma appears.


                            -----------------------------------------------------------------
                            P: Sensations is very clear tangible object (Kammathana) to mediatate on... (if some one correctly doing and not playing games with sensations)....That is why it is easy to practice for the ordinary house holders... Always some effort (viriya) has to be put initally to watch sensations from top to bottom. But as practice increases ... observing becomes effortless.

                            Vedana is universal chetasika with every chitta... "Vedana-samosarana sabbe dhamma".... Everything that arises in the mind is accompanied by sensation. This sensation arise on body. That is why Goenkaji points out sensatiosn are more important.
                            --------------------------------------------------------------

                            S:Actually, I remember bringing up some of this points a little with Mr Goenka at the time, but he didn't wish to discuss them - he'd just suggest I go away and meditate some more!


                            S: So I'm very interested to hear about your Abhidhamma classes in Bangalore as well. It's good to read a little, consider and discuss - otherwise it can all be blind theory or academic study.
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------
                            P: There is a monastry in the middle of banaglore city.
                            http://www.mahabodhi.info/
                            There are monks there. But they are lot of lay people meet every evening and weekends and discussing dhamma and stay together..
                            Monks generally qoute suttas only not abhidhamma. You are right it miight end up into blind theory.

                            But this DSG Group seems be much more adavanced and seasoned understanding of dhamma.
                            ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                            S: I wonder if you've read Nina's book "Abhidhamma in Daily Life?" I found it really helpful when I first started reading the chapters in manuscript form soon after that retreat with Mr Goenka.


                            In fact, beginning to read the first couple of chapters on namas and rupas and listening to some recordings of Ajahn Sujin talking about the experience of visible object or sound now, followed by all the conjuring up of stories leading to the ideas of people and things, led me to really appreciate that the Buddha's teachings are about anatta now - dhammas beyond anyone's control. I've never meditated (as commonly understood) since. Before that, I was a very serious meditator in the temple in Sri Lanka.--------------------------------------------------P: Yes. I have read Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily life" . Most Lucid and clear explanation of abhidhamma concepts. I have also read other works (Such as chetasika etc..) and they are in my soft library collection. I keep refering them. I have lot of respect to Nina. When I found her email address on this list, I have sent my questions to her priavately.. Then she encouraged me to go on this group, so that others also can see the discussion and get benefit. ------------------------------------------------------------------



                            S: Your familiarity with Pali terms will be helpful for you here. I appreciate your interest in classifications and Patthana relationships. Again, we can get lost in the detail and forget that all the Teachings come down to the understanding of the presently arising dhammas now as anatta - mere elements that don't belong to anyone and are not in anyone's control. The understanding means no selection, no attachment to having any dhamma arise now - any dhamma can be the object of understanding now, depending on the accumulations for such.

                            ------------------------------- P: Yes. that danger is there.. As one of my dhamma well wisher put it to me... This is like Dhamma Television is playing dhamma soap opera... I constantly engage in this dhamma entertainment (discussions, questions, answers, meeting people etc) and keep grasping on this and develop dhamma craving.. (This is definitely better than ordinary soap opera on ordinary TV channel). He said.. when the real experience comes... all this questions and entertainment willl vanish... ________________________________________________

                            S: From this point of view, whether you're at work as an engineer in Dallas or Bangalore, whether you're sitting quietly, whether you're with family and friends, there can be meditation, i.e. the development of understanding of seeing, visible object, thinking or any other presently appearing dhamma. --------------------------------P: fortunately.. i am retired some time ago... working in States Many years. Few hours I will be taking my flight to Banaglore --------------------------------



                            S: I've written more than I planned to do. I'll look forward to any further discussion on any of the points if they're of interest to you. --------------------------- P: Thanks. Certainly open for dhamma discussion.------------------------------------



                            S: If you (or any other new members) have a photo to add to the Member Album to be found on the home-page, it's always nice to see them.-------------------------P: I am not a big photo person. I will see



                            Metta

                            Prasad
                          • sarah
                            Dear Prasad, ... .... S: Wishing you a happy move and retirement. Lots and lots of thinking for us all. It helps a lot to know it s only thinking - just
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 14, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Prasad,

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Prasad Praturi <ppraturi@...> wrote:

                              > P: Now I will be in Bangalore and Dhammagiri.... Yes.. lots and lots of thinking... That is my biggest hindrance...
                              ....
                              S: Wishing you a happy move and retirement. Lots and lots of thinking for us all. It helps a lot to know it's only thinking - just dhammas, not Self. Also, it helps a lot to understand the concepts thought about are merely the objects of thinking, not realities. If we try to stop thinking, it's Self at work again, trying to control with attachment, not detachment.
                              >
                              > ----------------------------------------------------------------

                              > -------------------------------------------------------------
                              > P: Yes. it may be. ( but many belive).... continuous awareness of sensations and equanimity with realiazation of those changing nature (sampajanya) will lead to direct knowledge of annatta, dukka and anatta and final emancipationn eventually .... even without intellectually understanding a word in tripithka.
                              > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              S: Just a couple of points:
                              1. Without right intellectual understanding of dhammas (pariyatti), there cannot be direct understanding of dhammas (patipatti) or direct realisation/insight of those dhammas (pativedha). This is why we're fortunate to live in a Buddha sasana. Without an opportunity to hear the Teachings, no chance of developing such insight. (Note, I'm not referring to a knowledge of Pali or academic study here).

                              2. Sampajanna refers to panna, the direct understanding of dhammas (realities) in this case. In order to understand the tilakkana (the 3 characteristics) of dhammas, all kinds of dhammas have to be understood. The very first stage of inisght is the clear comprehension of the distinction between namas and rupas. This is only possible by directly understanding all kinds of namas and all kinds of rupas when they appear at the present moment, not just rupas, not just feelings, for example.

                              I know there are many different opinions, but I think the Buddha taught the "all" to be known - seeing, visible object, hearing, sound and so on.
                              .....

                              > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                              > P: Sensations is very clear tangible object (Kammathana) to mediatate on... (if some one correctly doing and not playing games with sensations)....That is why it is easy to practice for the ordinary house holders... Always some effort (viriya) has to be put initally to watch sensations from top to bottom. But as practice increases ... observing becomes effortless.
                              >
                              > Vedana is universal chetasika with every chitta... "Vedana-samosarana sabbe dhamma".... Everything that arises in the mind is accompanied by sensation. This sensation arise on body. That is why Goenkaji points out sensatiosn are more important.
                              > --------------------------------------------------------------

                              S: As you say, vedana is a universal cetasika which arises with every citta. So at a moment of seeing consciousness which experiences visible object, vedana accompanies the seeing. At a moment of hearing consciousness, vedana accompanies the hearing. At a moment of thinking useless (or useful) thoughts, vedana accompanies each moment of thinking.

                              Vedana are not tangible objects and vedana do not "arise on the body". The base of the vedana is the same as the citta it accompanies. Only one kind of citta arises at the body-sense and that is body-consciousness. No other cittas or vedana have this base.

                              The tangible objects experienced by body-consciousness (and its accompanying vedana) are the following rupas (one at a time): temperature, solidity and motion. This means that the object of body-consciousness may be heat or cold or hardness or softness or motion. These are not vedana.

                              After each sense door experience, such as an eye-door or body-door experience, it is always followed by mind-door experiences. It's therefore quite impossible that there can be continuous awareness of rupas through the body-door. The experience of heat, for example, may be experienced now by the 17 cittas in that sense process, but only one of these is experienced by body-consciousness. After those cittas have fallen away, there have to be bhavanga cittas and then mind-door cittas.

                              I appreciate you may have a different understanding.
                              ....
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > P: There is a monastry in the middle of banaglore city.
                              > http://www.mahabodhi.info/
                              > There are monks there. But they are lot of lay people meet every evening and weekends and discussing dhamma and stay together..
                              > Monks generally qoute suttas only not abhidhamma. You are right it miight end up into blind theory.
                              >
                              > But this DSG Group seems be much more adavanced and seasoned understanding of dhamma.
                              > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              S: It sounds a good place to discuss Dhamma and enjoy good friendship on the path. Here, we are just beginners on the path, sharing our understandings and comments together, that's all.
                              ...

                              .--------------------------------------------------
                              >P: Yes. I have read Nina's " Abhidhamma in Daily life" . Most Lucid and clear explanation of abhidhamma concepts. I have also read other works (Such as chetasika etc..) and they are in my soft library collection. I keep refering them. I have lot of respect to Nina. When I found her email address on this list, I have sent my questions to her priavately.. Then she encouraged me to go on this group, so that others also can see the discussion and get benefit. ------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ....
                              S: I'm glad she encouraged you to join us and perhaps some of your other friends in Bangalore will as well. Do you know Shalini or Krishnan who have both posted here and live in Bangalore? Maybe others too, I forget.

                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/115295
                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15314

                              I like the first chapter in ADL (above) which discusses the distinction between namas and rupas. If you'd like to quote any short paras anytime for further discussion, we could do that.
                              .....
                              S>>:...The understanding means no selection, no attachment to having any dhamma arise now - any dhamma can be the object of understanding now, depending on the accumulations for such.
                              >
                              > -------------------------------

                              >P: Yes. that danger is there.. As one of my dhamma well wisher put it to me... This is like Dhamma Television is playing dhamma soap opera... I constantly engage in this dhamma entertainment (discussions, questions, answers, meeting people etc) and keep grasping on this and develop dhamma craving.. (This is definitely better than ordinary soap opera on ordinary TV channel). He said.. when the real experience comes... all this questions and entertainment willl vanish... ________________________________________________
                              >
                              ...
                              S: And the main purpose of the teachings is to understand that all these different dhammas grasping after mirages, playing tricks like conjurers and so on are not Self. It's not you or me who engage or disingage in any activities - just dhammas rolling on, like the wheel of a vehicle. Understanding develops more detachment, less concern about dhammas being other than they are at this moment.
                              ...
                              >--------------------------------P: fortunately.. i am retired some time ago... working in States Many years. Few hours I will be taking my flight to Banaglore --------------------------------
                              S: It was good of you to reply just as you were about to take your flight. Now you'll be settling back in Bangalore with more visible objects, more sounds, more thinking:-)

                              Let us know how it goes.
                              ...
                              Metta

                              Sarah
                              =====
                            • Prasad Praturi
                              Dear Sarah, Thanks for the continued discussion...... ... S: I m glad she encouraged you to join us and perhaps some of your other friends in Bangalore will
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 15, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Sarah, Thanks for the continued discussion......





                                >>S: As you say, vedana is a universal cetasika which arises with every citta. So at a moment of seeing consciousness which >>experiences visible object, vedana accompanies the seeing. At a moment of hearing consciousness, vedana accompanies the >>hearing. At a moment of thinking useless (or useful) thoughts, vedana accompanies each moment of thinking.



                                >>S: Vedana are not tangible objects and vedana do not "arise on the body". The base of the vedana is the same as the citta it accompanies. Only one kind of citta arises at the body-sense and that is body-consciousness. No other cittas or vedana have this base.

                                >>>S: The tangible objects experienced by body-consciousness (and its accompanying vedana) are the following rupas (one at >>a time): temperature, solidity and motion. This means that the object of body-consciousness may be heat or cold or >>hardness or softness or motion. These are not vedana. ------------------- >>P: As Howard points out it could be terminology problem...

                                ---------------

                                >>S: After each sense door experience, such as an eye-door or body-door experience, it is always followed by mind-door >>experiences. It's therefore quite impossible that there can be continuous awareness of rupas through the body-door. The >>experience of heat, for example, may be experienced now by the 17 cittas in that sense process, but only one of these is >>experienced by body-consciousness. After those cittas have fallen away, there have to be bhavanga cittas and then mind->>door cittas.

                                ------------------------ P: Are'nt rupas occuring on body... as temparature, solidity and motion are the result of previous kamma (vipaka).. If one is aware (sati) of these Rupas ... and then simultaneously ... one do steadfast practice of equanimity (not reacting with craving/aversion) with understaning of impermanance nature (annicca) of these rupas... one may not generate new kamma (i.e means during javana chittas of that sequence)..... As a result of that another set of old kamma will come and manifest on body by another set of rupas... again when one practice of equanimity with annicca.. with awareness (Sati) of these rupas ...another set of Rupas (as a result of another past kamma) manifest.... Like this way .... if one practicing continuously equanimity with annicca understaning... one will purify the mind gradually... ( Stock of old sankharasa keep coming out) This appears to be the essential practice of Goenkaji's vipassana. In the due course of perfection of this practice.... tilakkana could be exeprienced. Discussion is welcome... --

                                S: I'm glad she encouraged you to join us and perhaps some of your other friends in Bangalore will as well. Do you know Shalini or Krishnan who have both posted here and live in Bangalore? Maybe others too, I forget. --------------------P: I just started meeting this group in Banaglore for about a year.. But i travel lot of time also.. May be they have moved to different palce.



                                ---------------------------------------------



                                >>S: I like the first chapter in ADL (above) which discusses the distinction between namas and rupas. If you'd like to quote any >>short paras anytime for further discussion, we could do that. -------------------------------------------------------P: Sure you can quote.. After arriving to Banaglore I started reading again ADL.. my clairity is increasing with her very simple explanation ... with sutta qoutes.. in the middle... ------------------------



                                S>>:...The understanding means no selection, no attachment to having any dhamma arise now - any dhamma can be the >>object of understanding now, depending on the accumulations for such.

                                >

                                > -------------------------------



                                >>S: Let us know how it goes.------------------------- P: Yes.. I am back in Banaglore.. But again i might end up travling in India some time.. Good to connect in this internet domain...Where are you located and where Nina and others located physically. ___________________



                                Metta

                                Prasad




















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • sarah
                                Dear Prasad, A good discussion... ... ... S: These rupas conditioned by kamma occur at the body-sense to be found all over the so-called body. In reality,
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 15, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Dear Prasad,

                                  A good discussion...

                                  --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Prasad Praturi <ppraturi@...> wrote:

                                  > ------------------------ P: Are'nt rupas occuring on body... as temparature, solidity and motion are the result of previous kamma (vipaka)..
                                  ...
                                  S: These rupas conditioned by kamma occur at the body-sense to be found all over the so-called body. In reality, there is no body - just various rupas arising and falling away. Although these rupas are conditioned by kamma, they are not vipaka. Vipaka refers to mental results of kamma, i.e. namas only, such as seeing and body-consciousness.

                                  At a moment of touching hardness or heat, whether it is the hardness or heat of the so-called arm or of the computer, the characteristic of hardness or heat is the same. So when understanding develops, there's no concern or thought about whether it is hardness of the body or hardness of the computer. It's just hardness. Just one reality can be experienced and known at a time without any preference or selection.
                                  ....
                                  >If one is aware (sati) of these Rupas ... and then simultaneously ... one do steadfast practice of equanimity (not reacting with craving/aversion) with understaning of impermanance nature (annicca) of these rupas...
                                  ....
                                  S: Of course, it is sati which is aware. It depends entirely on conditions what sati is aware of - whether it's a nama or a rupa, whether it's a rupa experienced through the body-sense or through the eye-door. If there is an attempt to focus or just be aware of particular rupas, it's not understanding with detachment, or equanimity as I see it, but a subtle attachment or desire for particular results. Unless there is a clear understanding of various dhammas, including all kinds of namas and all kinds of rupas as anatta, arisen by conditions, there cannot be any direct understanding of these dhammas as anicca, except as an idea.
                                  ....
                                  >one may not generate new kamma (i.e means during javana chittas of that sequence)..... As a result of that another set of old kamma will come and manifest on body by another set of rupas... again when one practice of equanimity with annicca.. with awareness (Sati) of these rupas ...another set of Rupas (as a result of another past kamma) manifest.... Like this way .... if one practicing continuously equanimity with annicca understaning... one will purify the mind gradually... ( Stock of old sankharasa keep coming out) This appears to be the essential practice of Goenkaji's vipassana. In the due course of perfection of this practice.... tilakkana could be exeprienced. Discussion is welcome... --
                                  ....
                                  S: As mentioned, I don't think that the way to understand the tilakkana of dhammas is by selecting rupas experienced through the body-sense and focussing on these. I don't see this as being so different from various yoga and Chinese healing systems. There is no understanding of dhammas as anatta, as arising by conditions beyond anyone's control. No one can stop the hearing of sounds now, the attachment or aversion which is bound to follow. Rather than trying to suppress various dhammas from arising, more precious is the direct understanding of whatever appears very naturally in daily life. The Buddha taught the understanding of dhammas appearing through six doorways, not one. If there's no understanding seeing and visible object when they appear, like now, for example, there cannot be the beginning of understanding those dhammas as anicca.

                                  The most important teaching is that of dhammas as anatta - not within anyone's control at all.

                                  In planes where only rupas or only namas are experienced, it's impossible to develop the insights because it's impossible to understand anatta without the clear understanding of both namas and rupas, no matter how they're named.

                                  From the beginning of Nina's "Abhidhamma in Daily Life":

                                  >THE FOUR PARAMATTHA DHAMMAS

                                  There are two kinds of reality: mental phenomena (nama) and physical
                                  phenomena (rupa). Nama experiences something; rupa does not experience
                                  anything. Seeing is, for example, a type of nama; it experiences visible
                                  object. Visible object itself is rupa; it does not experience anything. What
                                  we take for self are only nama and rupa which arise and fall away. The
                                  'Visuddhimagga' ('Path of Purity', a commentary) explains (Ch. XVIII, 25):

                                  For this has been said: .
                                  'As with the assembly of parts
                                  The word "chariot" is countenanced,
                                  So, When the khandhas are present,
                                  'A being' is said in common usage'
                                  (Kindred Sayings I, 135. The five khandhas (aggregates) are nothing else but
                                  nama and rupa. See Ch.2.)

                                  'So in many hundred suttas there is only
                                  mentality-materiality which is illustrated, not a being,
                                  not a person. Therefore, just as when the component
                                  parts (of a chariot) such as axles, wheels, frame, poles...
                                  are arranged in a certain way, there comes to be the
                                  mere conventional term 'chariot', yet in the ultimate
                                  sense, when each part is examined, there is no
                                  chariot, ...so too,... there comes to be the mere
                                  conventional term 'a being', 'a person', yet in the ultimate
                                  sense, when each component is examined, there is
                                  no being as a basis for the assumption ' I am' or ' I ' ;
                                  in the ultimate sense there is only mentality-materiality.
                                  The vision of one who sees in this way is called correct vision.'

                                  All phenomena in and around ourselves are only nama and rupa which arise and
                                  fall away; they are impermanent. Nama and rupa are absolute realities, in
                                  Pali: paramattha dhammas. We can experience their characteristics when they
                                  appear, no matter how we name them. Those who have developed 'insight' can
                                  experience them as they really are: impermanent and not self. The more we
                                  know different namas and rupas by experiencing their characteristics, the
                                  more we will see that 'self' is only a concept; it is not a paramattha
                                  dhamma. <

                                  *****
                                  I'll be glad to hear your further reflections.

                                  Metta

                                  Sarah
                                  =====
                                • Prasad Praturi
                                  Dear Sarah, I do not disagree with the terminology and line of explanation...and it is by the book.... Also I understand these were based on personal
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 16, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear Sarah, I do not disagree with the terminology and line of explanation...and it is by the book.... Also I understand these were based on personal experiences, as well.... However.....
                                    ----------------------------

                                    >>S::....... If there is an attempt to focus or just be aware of particular rupas, it's not understanding with detachment, or equanimity as I see it, but a subtle attachment or desire for particular results. ----------------------------P: This Vipassana technique does not teach (or suggest) the student to expect any pertiular results. Subtle or otherwise.. Some students may start cherishing certain pleasan experiences (expecting them) and rejecting ceratin unpleasent exepriences (not expecing them) ... obviously not practicing the technique properly.......There are lot of warnings on this sitaution.-------------------------------------------- >>S: Unless there is a clear understanding of various dhammas, including all kinds of namas and all kinds of rupas as anatta, >>arisen by conditions, there cannot be any direct understanding of these dhammas as anicca, except as an idea.



                                    >>S: As mentioned, I don't think that the way to understand the tilakkana of dhammas is by selecting rupas experienced >>through the body-sense and focussing on these. I don't see this as being so different from various yoga and Chinese healing >>systems. There is no understanding of dhammas as anatta, as arising by conditions beyond anyone's control. No one can >>stop the hearing of sounds now, the attachment or aversion which is bound to follow. >>S:Rather than trying to suppress various dhammas from arising, more precious is the direct understanding of whatever appears very naturally in daily life. --------------------------------------------------P: Again this vipassana technique does not teach or suggets to supress any specific dhammas or suggest to expect any specific dhammas... Technique suggests see things (Reality) as it is ... this is repeated many times throught the instruction periods... However the technique expect a student sit and close ones eyes and mediatate... during the 10 day course.. ---------------------------------->> S:The Buddha taught the understanding of dhammas appearing through six doorways, not one. If there's no understanding >> seeing and visible object when they appear, like now, for example, there cannot be the beginning of understanding those >>dhammas as anicca.



                                    >>The most important teaching is that of dhammas as anatta - not within anyone's control at all.



                                    >>In planes where only rupas or only namas are experienced, it's impossible to develop the insights because it's impossible to >>understand anatta without the clear understanding of both namas and rupas, no matter how they're named.



                                    ------------------------------------------------------------------- P: Finally,, I do not know how a kinder garden student coming to learn dhamma practice .. can understand this high level understanding of terms... abhidhamma concepts.. and practice 24/7 like as suggested.. ( understanding namas...Rupas.. distinctions... conditionalities .... rasing and falling dhammas on senese doors... etc.. etc..) P: In order to teach simple eight fold path in three divisions taught by buddha.. Ledi Saydaw ( we do not know about his teacher) taught students ... Practicing morality (sila) ... Then concentrating mind using anapana meditation (samadhi).. Then enter into experiencial faculty and gaining understaning of reality (pa~~nya) ... using scanning body senations from head to toe... and observaing the changing nature of these sensations... Later This technique is converted in 10 day format and taught thousands of students worldwide... so that large number of students will get benifit( Bhahujana hitaya .. Bahujana sukhaya) When ceratin advanced students ... when they are interested ... Can study and perfect the practice with those details you have outlined.. That is my understanding.. Metta

                                    Prasad



                                    =====


















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • sarah
                                    Dear Prasad, ... P: Again this vipassana technique does not teach or suggets to supress any specific dhammas or suggest to expect any specific dhammas...
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 23, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Dear Prasad,

                                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Prasad Praturi <ppraturi@...> wrote:
                                      --------------------------------------------------
                                      P: Again this vipassana technique does not teach or suggets to supress any specific dhammas or suggest to expect any specific dhammas... Technique suggests see things (Reality) as it is ... this is repeated many times throught the instruction periods... However the technique expect a student sit and close ones eyes and mediatate... during the 10 day course..
                                      ----------------------------------
                                      S: Now we're not sitting with eyes closed or focussing on sensations and yet there are dhammas being experienced which can be known directly. So there's no need to wait until our eyes are closed or we're sitting quietly - there can be awareness now of any dhamma appearing without any prior determination of what dhamma, what reality that may be. Vipassana is the development of insight, not a technique.
                                      ....
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------- P: Finally,, I do not know how a kinder garden student coming to learn dhamma practice .. can understand this high level understanding of terms... abhidhamma concepts.. and practice 24/7 like as suggested.. ( understanding namas...Rupas.. distinctions... conditionalities .... rasing and falling dhammas on senese doors... etc.. etc..)
                                      ...
                                      S: The dhamma practice has to start 'right' from the beginning, otherwise we go more and more off-track. So the beginning is hearing and considering more about the realities which make up our life, even now as we speak. So now there is seeing and visible object which is seen. There is thinking about what is seen, there is like, dislike and so on. These are not "abhidhamma concepts", but the realities that the Buddha taught about in the entire Tipitaka. There won't be awareness at every moment 24/7 - that's not the goal. However, the understanding and awareness of a dhamma can only ever be at the present moment. The closer the understanding is to what is experienced now, the reality appearing now, the more it begins to develop.

                                      When we doubt this or think there has to be a technique to speed progress, that doubt can be known now as another reality too. It's impossible for there to be any understanding of the impermanence of dhammas if there isn't a beginning to understand those dhammas at this very moment.
                                      ....

                                      >P: In order to teach simple eight fold path in three divisions taught by buddha.. Ledi Saydaw ( we do not know about his teacher) taught students ... Practicing morality (sila) ... Then concentrating mind using anapana meditation (samadhi).. Then enter into experiencial faculty and gaining understaning of reality (pa~~nya) ... using scanning body senations from head to toe... and observaing the changing nature of these sensations... Later This technique is converted in 10 day format and taught thousands of students worldwide... so that large number of students will get benifit( Bhahujana hitaya .. Bahujana sukhaya) When ceratin advanced students ... when they are interested ... Can study and perfect the practice with those details you have outlined.. That is my understanding..
                                      ....
                                      S: I appreciate this and I know the technique is very popular, but it's not the way that the Buddha taught the development of understanding, the development of insight.

                                      I think that the Buddha taught the understanding of present dhammas as anatta from the very beginning. The sooner we begin to appreciate that dhammas are not within our control, the sooner understanding with detachment will develop.

                                      Even the sila and samadhi can only be developed and purified with the development of right understanding of realities from the beginning.

                                      Yes, we're all beginners, so now is the time to begin being aware of what appears right now. Please let me know if you disagree.

                                      Metta

                                      Sarah
                                      =====
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.