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Re: [dsg] calm and insight.

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Hi Howard, ... Now, we can look at the sutta you quote. This is in a series of three suttas. Insight and tranquillity are praised. I have the commentary in
    Message 1 of 5 , Apr 1, 2012
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      Hi Howard,
      Op 31-mrt-2012, om 17:47 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:
      > " Some people in the Buddha's time
      > developed samatha first and then vipassanaa, or vice versa, or both
      > at the same time, or only vipassanaa. I do not think they would tell
      > themselves: I must develop samatha first so that it helps vipassanaa.
      > It is not a question of telling oneself what to do first, people are
      > inclined already to proceed in this way or that way."
      > ================================
      > But the Buddha taught differently in AN 4.94, it seems to me. I quote
      > from it at the end.
      >
      ----------
      > N: I was actually thinking of A II, 156, coupled, yuganaddha, where
      > this is explained. In other contexts there is emphasis on other
      > aspects.
      >
      Now, we can look at the sutta you quote. This is in a series of three
      suttas. Insight and tranquillity are praised. I have the commentary
      in Thai at hand.
      " insight into phenomena through heightened discernment" can also be
      translated as higher wisdom of insight, adhipa~n~naa-dhamma-
      vipassanaa. In the first sutta, adhipa~n~naa is stressed. Co: he
      should know the five khandhas as they are.
      N: adhipa~n~naa, this is always together with higher siila and higher
      citta, that is, higher concentration.
      ------
      second sutta: here effort or energy is emphasized. <He should make an
      effort to establish the one (N: higher insight) and attain the other
      (N: calm). Co: with chanda (wish to do) and vayamo, effort. Usaha, a
      great deal of effort.
      The third sutta is the one you quote. As to insight, co: he has to
      realize all conditioned dhammas as impermanent, dukkha, anattaa. As
      to the person who has gained insight but not calm, as you quote:

      < "As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through
      >
      > heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness,
      > he should
      > approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of
      > awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How
      > should it be made to
      > settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be
      > concentrated?' The
      > other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The
      > mind
      > should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle
      > down in this
      > way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be
      > concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will
      > become one who has
      > attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into
      > phenomena
      > through heightened discernment. >
      >
      -------
      N: Co: he should establish concentration by means of the first
      jhaana, citta should have only one object.
      The co adds: the wise should see the meaning of vipassanaa and
      samatha as being lokiya, mundane and lokuttara, supramundane, as the
      Buddha explained in all the suttas, also in these three suttas.
      The sutta text states further on, as you quote: <"As for the
      individual who has attained both internal tranquillity of
      >
      > awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment,
      > his duty is
      > to make an effort in establishing ('tuning') those very same skillful
      > qualities to a higher degree for the ending of the (mental)
      > fermentations. >
      >
      -------
      N: My remarks: The sakadaagami has eradicated all attachment to sense
      objects, and thus, he has a high degree of calm. But this is not
      enough, he should further develop insight to reach arahatship. The
      eradication of all asavas is the highest degree of calm. The calm
      accompanying fruition consciousness that experiences nibbaana after
      the defilements have been eradicated is the highest calm , it is
      lokuttara.
      -----------
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • ptaus1
      Hi Nina, Thanks for your reply. ... pt: Yes, it seems reasonable that concentration of samatha class is different from concentration of vipassana class. As it
      Message 2 of 5 , Apr 6, 2012
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        Hi Nina,

        Thanks for your reply.

        > N: ... Thus, concentration accompanying the kusala citta with pa~n~naa that
        > develops vipassanaa is different from the concentration that
        > accompanies the kusala citta with pa~n~naa that develops samatha.
        > Both types of cittas and accompanying cetasikas have different aims,
        > different ways of practice.

        pt: Yes, it seems reasonable that concentration of samatha class is different from concentration of vipassana class. As it is with panna, too. It further seems just as reasonable that the same should apply to all the other cetasikas - universals, particulars and sobhana.

        Regarding whether concentration of samatha class conditions concentration of vipassana class for example, I understand that it is difficult to answer. I find it safer for now to assume that it doesn't, and apply the same to other cetasikas as well, but I don't know of course, nor do I have a handy textual reference.

        Best wishes
        pt
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