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Re: Cetasika in daily life -project -ditthi 1

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  • sarah
    Dear Lukas, ... ... S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You ll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 1, 2012
      Dear Lukas,

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@...> wrote:

      > L: Lol :P I cant drink, Luraya comes for a weekend tomorrow to visit me.
      ...
      S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits.

      Metta

      Sarah
      ======
    • Lukas
      Dear Sarah, ... L: Yes of course. She said that she cant wait to meditate together and having dhamma disscussions. Best wishes Lukas
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 1, 2012
        Dear Sarah,

        > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits.

        L: Yes of course. She said that she cant wait to meditate together and having dhamma disscussions.

        Best wishes
        Lukas
      • rjkjp1
        Dear All I find this interesting. Is someone who encourages you to follow a path such as intensive meditation techniques(such as goenka etc) really such a good
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 2, 2012
          Dear All
          I find this interesting.
          Is someone who encourages you to follow a path such as intensive meditation techniques(such as goenka etc) really such a good influence?

          I always wonder: to me things like drinking alcohol are motivated by lobha but not by wrongview, whereas I have the techniques are done with both.
          Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (ifn done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this.
          I think someone might study patthana with lobha- and thus not benefit- but it seems the man who thinks standing on one leg is the way to nibbana has a healthy dose of wrong view added.

          In short I really dont believe that someone with right view could think standing on one leg is something they will do, other than as exercise. But I still stubbonly think that the man with rightview might be seen perusing a copy of the Patthana- albeit often with some attachment thrown in.
          Robert

          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Lukas,
          >
          > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Lukas" <szmicio@> wrote:
          >
          > > L: Lol :P I cant drink, Luraya comes for a weekend tomorrow to visit me.
          > ...
          > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits.
          >
          > Metta
          >
          > Sarah
          > ======
          >
        • sarah
          Dear Rob K, ... .... S: My comment below was with regard to the comment about the discouragement of drinking - nothing about the meditation techniques. I m
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 2, 2012
            Dear Rob K,

            --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

            > I find this interesting.
            > Is someone who encourages you to follow a path such as intensive meditation techniques(such as goenka etc) really such a good influence?
            ....
            S: My comment below was with regard to the comment about the discouragement of drinking - nothing about the meditation techniques. I'm sure Lukas will be encouraging more consideration of dhammas.

            > > > L: Lol :P I cant drink, Luraya comes for a weekend tomorrow to visit me.
            > > ...
            > > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-) You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can help her to post a message when she visits.
            ....
            > I always wonder: to me things like drinking alcohol are motivated by lobha but not by wrongview, whereas I have the techniques are done with both.
            > Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (ifn done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this.
            ....
            S: The discussion at the foundation was about lobha and ditthi. The point that some of us were making was that it is the cittas that count, not the situations. So lobha and ditthi may arise whilst studying the Patthana, standing on one leg or following meditation techniques or even now! Panna can only know such dhammas when they arise. This is why it was suggested by some of us that it's useless to keep arguing about situations - better to understand more about dhammas. This is the way that ditthi will be known and there will be less inclination then for silabbata paramasa.
            ...
            > I think someone might study patthana with lobha- and thus not benefit- but it seems the man who thinks standing on one leg is the way to nibbana has a healthy dose of wrong view added.
            ...
            S: Someone may also consider that memorising the Patthana in Pali is the way to nibbana or attending the shrine or the Foundation every week for that matter..... it all comes down to the present lobha and ditthi now. Talking about 'good' and 'bad' situations or situations with 'right view' or 'wrong view' just leads to pointless arguments as I see it - nothing to do with understanding present dhammas like seeing or visible object now.
            ....
            > In short I really dont believe that someone with right view could think standing on one leg is something they will do, other than as exercise. But I still stubbonly think that the man with rightview might be seen perusing a copy of the Patthana- albeit often with some attachment thrown in.
            ...
            S: What was it K.Sujin said to Jessica when she mentioned she'd better go and study the Patthana to understand more about conditions? Something like "useless, if there's no understanding"

            What is understanding or right view if not the understanding of namas and rupas now regardless of the activity?

            Metta

            Sarah
            ======
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Sarah, Yes, I also heard Kh Sujin say that in order to study the D.O. there should be right understanding of realities. I think: if a person does not know
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 2, 2012
              Dear Sarah,
              Yes, I also heard Kh Sujin say that in order to study the D.O. there
              should be right understanding of realities. I think: if a person does
              not know at all about naama and ruupa, if there is no basic
              understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six
              doors, he would not understand anything about the D.O. He may just
              repeat some words of the texts.
              Nina.
              Op 2-feb-2012, om 11:23 heeft sarah het volgende geschreven:

              > S: What was it K.Sujin said to Jessica when she mentioned she'd
              > better go and study the Patthana to understand more about
              > conditions? Something like "useless, if there's no understanding"



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Lukas, ... N: There are many disadvantages and dangers with regard to alcohol. You have read about this in the suttas. Apart from becoming a slave, not
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 5, 2012
                Dear Lukas,
                Op 2-feb-2012, om 7:56 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

                > S: Glad to hear it. She sounds like a good influence indeed:-)
                > You'll find life is much better without the drink. Perhaps you can
                > help her to post a message when she visits.
                ----------
                N: There are many disadvantages and dangers with regard to alcohol.
                You have read about this in the suttas. Apart from becoming a slave,
                not free, there is also another danger. Alcohol destroys braincells
                and this may hinder you in the future, prevents clear thinking. You
                are young and still have to build up your career, make a living, take
                responsibilities with regard to others, and it is necessary to take
                all this into consideration. Getting drunk is like playing with fire.
                I hope you have a fruitful weekend with lots of Dhamma discussions
                with Luraya. Perhaps you can share with us.

                Nina.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Dieter, ... N: It arises all the time in daily life, even now. When pleasant objects are experienced through the senses, lobha is bound to arise, even
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 6, 2012
                  Dear Dieter,
                  Op 31-jan-2012, om 18:08 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:
                  >
                  > N: this is mine , this I am, this is myself. These expressions have
                  > been explained respectively as: lobha without wrong view, lobha
                  > with conceit, lobha with di.t.thi. They are different moments.
                  >
                  > D: lobha without wrong view ? That would be a suprise to me ..any
                  > quotation available?
                  >
                  --------
                  N: It arises all the time in daily life, even now. When pleasant
                  objects are experienced through the senses, lobha is bound to arise,
                  even during the sense-door process when very little is known about
                  the object. It arises by accumulations. No special view of myself, of
                  eternalism or annihilism. In the Abhidhamma there are eight types of
                  cittas rooted in lobha classified and four of these are without wrong
                  view, di.t.thigata vippayutta. See Dhammasangani 400. The third type:
                  "When a bad thought has arisen which is accompamnied by gladness and
                  disconnected with view and opinions..."
                  --------
                  >
                  >
                  > N: Abhidhamma's treatment of the D.O. is in complete agreement with
                  > the suttanta treatment.
                  >
                  > D: you mean treatment by 'The Modes of Depency ' Paccayakana
                  > Vibhanga ? pls see page 61 ff
                  > https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://www.dhammikaweb.com/wp-
                  > content/uploads/2010/09/
                  > Nyanatiloka_Guide_through_the_Abhidhamma.pdf&embedded=true
                  > (first impression : too many modes for a practical approach)
                  >
                  -------
                  N: I could not make out p. 61. Never mind, but there never is a
                  contradiction.
                  >
                  > N: N: First it has to be thoroughly known what naama is, what ruupa
                  > > is, and their characterstics have to be clearly distinguished.
                  > > ---------
                  > >
                  > > D: I noted this emphases, however the priority isn't yet clear to me
                  >
                  -------
                  N: The dependent origination deals with the conditional arising of
                  naama and ruupa. How could one begin to study this, if the
                  characteristics of naama and ruupa are not clearly known?
                  ------
                  > ------
                  > N: Take the characteristic of impermanence, this cannot be
                  > thoroughly known so long as we take naama and ruupa as a whole,
                  > that is, when
                  > they are not clearly distinguished. It has to be known precisely:
                  > what arises and falls away.
                  > Do insist if this is not clear yet, it is an important point.
                  >
                  > D: I see , those characteristics we know from the Maha Satipatthana
                  > Sutta , i.e. the 4 foundations of mindfulness
                  >
                  -------
                  N : All realities of daily life: seeing, colour, hearing, sound, they
                  are all different. We take seeing and colour together, do not really
                  distinguish them. We take hearing and sound together. We are
                  thoroughly mixed up.
                  ------
                  >
                  > N: Micchaa di.t.thi includes all kinds of wrong view, there are
                  > many kinds and many degrees.
                  >
                  > D: we use ditthi already for wrong view (, sorry to be stubborn
                  > with the terms ) , it would make sense to me if ditthi is used for
                  > views not included within the Buddha-Dhamma and micca ditthi to
                  > emphasise opposition . Sutta context may show..
                  >
                  ------
                  N: Sometimes micchaadi.t.thi is used, sometimes di.t.thi when it is
                  clear within the context. Otherwise people may confuse it with
                  di.t.thi that stands for sammaa-di.t.thi.
                  -------
                  >
                  > N: Understanding the law of kamma, this may be only theoretical.
                  > From > the first stage of tender insight on there is understanding of
                  > > kamma and vipaaka. Before that one does not clearly realize what
                  > is > vipaaka, since naama is not yet known as naama.
                  >
                  > D: you mean a clear realiziation of nama (rupa) is the forerunner
                  > for the understanding of wholesome action by body, speech and
                  > thought (kamma patha) ?
                  >
                  ------
                  N: Seeing is vipaakacitta, but when there is no direct understanding
                  of seeing as naama we do not know much about vipaaka. Vipaaka is the
                  result of kamma that is also naama. Kusala and akusala are naamas
                  different from each other, and different from vipaaka. So long as we
                  do not have direct understanding of naama when it appears, we are
                  groping in the dark.
                  Theoretical understanding is useful but it does not go very deep.
                  ------
                  Nina.
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • sarah
                  Dear Rob K & all, Here s part of a discussion related to your following comment here. ... ... In Bangkok, you had raised the tale from the Dhp comy about the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 7, 2012
                    Dear Rob K & all,

                    Here's part of a discussion related to your following comment here.

                    >R: Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (if done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this.
                    ...

                    In Bangkok, you had raised the tale from the Dhp comy about the novice who had wanted the red fish, knowing it was suitable nutriment for him and had asked Sariputta to fetch it (but had become an arahat in the meantime.) After some discussion about the incident :

                    KS: What's the moral of the Teachings?

                    R: I guess it's not that red fish is best for us? No!

                    KS: The variety of accumulations of each one.

                    R: Yeah, different conditions.

                    S: And that is actually the same answer to the "going to the forest" or "reading the Pattana". It depends. Last time a friend said she didn't like to read any [Dhamma] books - different accumulations.

                    R: But it doesn't give the answer of the guy by the Ganges who stood alive holding up his hand, right? this is not the same element because the holding up the hand for 32 years was pure wrong view......

                    KS: It doesn't matter as long as there is any understanding of reality right now, no matter in what position.
                    ******

                    Metta

                    Sarah
                    =====
                  • rjkjp1
                    Thanks for transcribing that Sarah. I realize that silabataparamsa is always waiting in the wings to trick us. Hence the one who studies Patthana may
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 7, 2012
                      Thanks for transcribing that Sarah.

                      I realize that silabataparamsa is always waiting in the wings to trick us. Hence the one who studies Patthana may unknowingly trying to force results, or have a subtle idea that "this is the way", rather than truly understanding the path of direct insight.

                      the complication though, is that the voice of another (i.e. the buddha's words) (as exemplified in the Patthana )are a major cause for wisdom to arise. Yes for many that silabataparamasa may block any benifits from the study...

                      On the other hand, as Khun Sujin says, wisdom can arise at any time, even while holding ones hand in the air. The comlication here, as I see it, is that if the reason someone is holding their hand in the air, thinking that is the path then the worng view must be thick and fetid indeed.

                      Of course who can sa: the handholder may hear something that makes sense, drop his wrong practice and go on to nibbana... The patthana man might never get the real point of what the Buddha was saying..
                      Robert
                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Rob K & all,
                      >
                      > Here's part of a discussion related to your following comment here.
                      >
                      > >R: Sarah, you suggested I think, that studying Patthana (if done with any lobha) was just as bad as going to a jungle and standing on one leg. But I still have some resistance to this.
                      > ...
                      >
                      > In Bangkok, you had raised the tale from the Dhp comy about the novice who had wanted the red fish, knowing it was suitable nutriment for him and had asked Sariputta to fetch it (but had become an arahat in the meantime.) After some discussion about the incident :
                      >
                      > KS: What's the moral of the Teachings?
                      >
                      > R: I guess it's not that red fish is best for us? No!
                      >
                      > KS: The variety of accumulations of each one.
                      >
                      > R: Yeah, different conditions.
                      >
                      > S: And that is actually the same answer to the "going to the forest" or "reading the Pattana". It depends. Last time a friend said she didn't like to read any [Dhamma] books - different accumulations.
                      >
                      > R: But it doesn't give the answer of the guy by the Ganges who stood alive holding up his hand, right? this is not the same element because the holding up the hand for 32 years was pure wrong view......
                      >
                      > KS: It doesn't matter as long as there is any understanding of reality right now, no matter in what position.
                      > ******
                      >
                      > Metta
                      >
                      > Sarah
                      > =====
                      >
                    • Lukas
                      Dear Nina Weekend with Luraya was wonderful. Whe didnt have as much Dhamma discussions as we both expected, cause we were mostly interested in each other a
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 7, 2012
                        Dear Nina

                        Weekend with Luraya was wonderful. Whe didnt have as much Dhamma discussions as we both expected, cause we were mostly interested in each other a bit. Though we was very close to each other, having lovely sex, huging each other and also a lot of time to know each other better.
                        Even though we had also Dhamma time in between. I played for a while Acharn Sujin talk, this in a boat where she mentiones, 'lobha doesnt let anyone to get out of its cage'. I was suprised by Luraya cause she knew what lobha means(because she reads all the time Perfections and Survey). She says lobha, lobha in such a nice way with this accent. Also she came to poland with a little suitcase, and with it she had Perfections book. When she came back to Sweden waiting for a bus she wrote me an sms '4 hours waiting for a bus.I am gona to read your book on paramis. To be better in Dhamma discussions next time'.
                        She comes back to Poland 20th of Feb for a week. She also was so eager to come to DSG, she read a posts on her own. She asked me if I can send her the most important messages to her email, cause she has limited resources of time and access to internet. Then she reads and answer back to the group. I send her yesterday your post on alcohol Nina, and she answered:

                        <Luraya:oh it is so nice to read that she is there and with you!(L:Nina)
                        i think it is so hard to understand what you are going through, as adam said. sometimes when i start to be very very hungry and loose my equanimity i think it must be like not getting alcohol when you are craving for it, but with alcohol and drugs it is at least 13 times stronger!

                        i know that you are strong and i am so happy for your promise, it makes me really feeling better now and calmer to sit the course!

                        i am sooo tired, still :)
                        send you all my biggest hugs and metta to you my wonderful dhamma friend!!
                        love!>

                        Best wishes
                        Lukas


                        > N: There are many disadvantages and dangers with regard to alcohol.
                        > You have read about this in the suttas. Apart from becoming a slave,
                        > not free, there is also another danger. Alcohol destroys braincells
                        > and this may hinder you in the future, prevents clear thinking. You
                        > are young and still have to build up your career, make a living, take
                        > responsibilities with regard to others, and it is necessary to take
                        > all this into consideration. Getting drunk is like playing with fire.
                        > I hope you have a fruitful weekend with lots of Dhamma discussions
                        > with Luraya. Perhaps you can share with us.
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Lukas and Luraya, ... N: Thank you for your report. As Luraya said it is hard to go through such an enslavement. At the same time it can help to see the
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 8, 2012
                          Dear Lukas and Luraya,
                          Op 8-feb-2012, om 8:55 heeft Lukas het volgende geschreven:

                          > Luraya: i think it is so hard to understand what you are going
                          > through, as adam said. sometimes when i start to be very very
                          > hungry and loose my equanimity i think it must be like not getting
                          > alcohol when you are craving for it, but with alcohol and drugs it
                          > is at least 13 times stronger!
                          >
                          > i know that you are strong and i am so happy for your promise, it
                          > makes me really feeling better now and calmer to sit the course!
                          ------
                          N: Thank you for your report. As Luraya said it is hard to go through
                          such an enslavement. At the same time it can help to see the many
                          dangers, hiri and ottappa can arise: seeing the danger of akusala.
                          But, if they do not arise, no way to abstain, that is true. Help from
                          friends like Luraya is useful, it can strengthen you. We all
                          sympathize with your problems and just like to support you with
                          Dhamma in whatever way we can.
                          I am very glad that Luraya appreciates the Perfections, they are so
                          good for practice in daily life, really inspiring.
                          with best wishes to you both,

                          Nina



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • sarah abbott
                          Dear Rob K, Thanks for your further comments. ... ... S: There has to be pa~n~naa for there to be suta-maya-pa~n~naa, for there to be wise considering of the
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 8, 2012
                            Dear Rob K,

                            Thanks for your further comments.

                            --- On Wed, 8/2/12, rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...> wrote:

                            >I realize that silabataparamsa is always waiting in the wings to trick us. Hence the one who studies Patthana may unknowingly trying to force results, or have a subtle idea that "this is the way", rather than truly understanding the path of direct insight.

                            >the complication though, is that the voice of another (i.e. the buddha's words) (as exemplified in the Patthana )are a major cause for wisdom to arise. Yes for many that silabataparamasa may block any benifits from the study...
                            ...
                            S: There has to be pa~n~naa for there to be suta-maya-pa~n~naa, for there to be wise considering of the sounds that have been heard.

                            From the Nanamoli/Bodhi translation of MN43:

                            "Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view:
                            the voice of another (S: parato ghosa) and wise attention (S: yoniso manasikara)."
                            ["MA: 'The voice of another' (parato ghosa) is the teaching of beneficial Dhamma. These two conditions are necessary for disciples to arrive at the right view of insight and the right view of the supramundane path....]
                            ****

                            Here's another transcription from the start of the discussion in Bangkok. You had been saying that you thought some activities, such as the guy holding his hand in the air by the Ganges, are really wrong and that other activities like reading the Abhidhamma books are not wrong. You asked if this was correct.

                            KS: It depends on right now at this very moment, no matter what brings understanding of realities right now is right.

                            R: OK, is any activity useful?

                            KS: It doesn't matter, because now reality appears, but it depends on how much understanding (there is) of it as not self, one by one, each one, like seeing now. Is there any glimpse of understanding that it is a reality, one reality in the circle of birth and death, samsara vatta? Nothing is missing, otherwise that's the end of samsara vatta, but there is no understanding of anyone. No matter one stands for 5 hours, 5 years or one hour, one minute - it depends on right understanding only.
                            ****

                            >R: On the other hand, as Khun Sujin says, wisdom can arise at any time, even while holding ones hand in the air. The complication here, as I see it, is that if the reason someone is holding their hand in the air, thinking that is the path then the worng view must be thick and fetid indeed.

                            >Of course who can say the handholder may hear something that makes sense, drop his wrong practice and go on to nibbana... The patthana man might never get the real point of what the Buddha was saying..
                            ....

                            S: In reality, there is no forest, no person holding his hand in the air, no Patthana - there are just namas and rupas arising and falling away. So just as it just depends now whether there is any understanding of what appears, so it does at any other time.

                            Metta

                            Sarah
                            =====
                          • sarah
                            Dear Nina & all, Thanks for your comments. ... .... S: Yes, agreed. We know that without hearing the Teachings, it s impossible to understand realities, but
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 8, 2012
                              Dear Nina & all,

                              Thanks for your comments.

                              --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                              > Yes, I also heard Kh Sujin say that in order to study the D.O. there
                              > should be right understanding of realities. I think: if a person does
                              > not know at all about naama and ruupa, if there is no basic
                              > understanding of dhammas as they appear one at a time through the six
                              > doors, he would not understand anything about the D.O. He may just
                              > repeat some words of the texts.
                              ....
                              S: Yes, agreed. We know that without hearing the Teachings, it's impossible to understand realities, but there has to be understanding of what is heard, a basic understanding of dhammas as you say.

                              In the same discussion in Bangkok, Rob K asked why so many people who study the Abhidhamma or listen to the Teachings don't seem to "get right understanding".

                              KS: It depends on what one understands by the term "Abhidhamma". Why is dhamma Abhidhamma? Is Abhidhamma different from dhamma or is it just the qualification or quality of dhamma?

                              R: Just the qualification.

                              S: The point we were trying to make is that if one reads the Abhidhamma, even in Pali, if there's no understanding at all, it's useless - just like standing on one leg or going to a retreat.

                              KS: Not understanding even the word Abhidhamma -

                              Sukin: So what you're saying is the point of studying is to understand the reality and it's therefore useless to talk in terms of one activity being better, more wrong than another one.

                              KS: Can anyone say "Abhidhamma" without ay understanding at all?

                              Sukin: Yes.

                              KS: So is that the understanding of dhamma?

                              Sukin: No.

                              KS: So what's the use of not understanding, but just saying Abhidhamma?
                              *****

                              Metta

                              Sarah
                              =====
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