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Re: [dsg] Pativedha, pariyatti & patipatti

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  • Andrew Barnes
    Hi Sarah, and a very warm wish for a good new year to all. Metta. S: Welcome to DSG from me as well! Why not tell us a little more about yourself and your
    Message 1 of 35 , Jan 1, 2012
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      Hi Sarah, and a very warm wish for a good new year to all. Metta.

      S: >Welcome to DSG from me as well! Why not tell us a little more about yourself and your interest in the Dhamma? Do you live in England? If so where? I come from Sussex in England myself, but haven't lived in England for over 30 years now.

      A: Thanks Sarah. Well, at 44, I suppose I really started following the path about 8 years ago. I had always been interested in spirituality and so was familiar with the basic Buddhist concepts from childhood. During an intensive but unsatisfying sojourn with the Baha'i faith, I had begun again to read more fully into Buddhism and found that it spoke more fully to me than other paths. 18 months ago I attended a vipassana retreat and so bagan a more fully engaged emersion in the dhamma. I'm not sure which 'school' of Buddhism will eventaully speak to me more fully, or if indeed I will find a need to identify with any in particular at all. Currently, I am concentrating my reading on the Pali tipitaka as the logical starting point and my meditation practice is confined to vipassana, ending in metta and recently I am considering adding a session of samatha to the mix.
      Yes. I live in Britain, near Gloucester. Where are you living now?


      S: >As others have suggested, the only "practice" of any real value is the understanding of dhammas now, at this very moment. All past moments of "pratice" have gone and future moments haven't come. For any practice (patipatti) or development (bhavana), there needs to be a lot of understanding of the realities being experienced now. We can discuss this in more detail.
      ..

      A: I have noticed the emphasis from most, as you mention, on the understanding of dhammas when speaking of meditation. I read, therefore, vipassana when most say meditation. Might I suggest to the community generally that it may be helpful to be more specific as to which type of practice they refer. Metta meditation, for instance, is completely different.

      S:> I'll look forward to reading more of your comments. Please join in any thread (old or new) anytime. 
      A: Expect more questions than answers or opinions. Unknowledgable opinion would be of no use.

      A:>I then found the following at wikipedia -
      >'In Theravada Buddhism pariyatti is the learning of the theory of buddhadharma as contained within the suttas of the Pali canon. It is contrasted with patipatti which means to put the theory into practice and pativedha which means penetrating it or rather experientially realising the truth of it.' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pariyatti
      ....
      S:> That's quite good. Of course, the theory is not the reading and book study of the Pali canon but the understanding, theoretically at first, of the dhammas represented as appearing now in our daily life.

      A: This is my current objective. I am fairly well versed in the theory, and I'm sure the DSG will help towards the understanding.

      A:>My question, I guess, however is more to do with pativedha and how possible is this through the citta and cetasikas?
      ....
      S: >Never any experiencing of any kind through anything but citta and cetasikas. This is why the pariyatti needs to be very firm in the first place.

      A: Clear. Thank-you.

      A:>Since all our perceptions, even when sitting, need to come through one of the 6 sense doors, it requires a certain amount of time to be perceived, even when our right-mindfulness is near-perfect.
      ....
      S:> I'd say this is an illusion and what does it mean to say "when our right-mindfulness is near perfect"?

      A: Please explain more your meaning of illusion here. When I refer to 'mindfulness' I am referring to awareness of things as they really are. As we are therefore 'aware' that a perception, at these moments, is just that, a perception, and therefore only fleeting, we must also, surely, be aware that it is also only a representation of that which has past. Caused by the object of the perception, the perception, now as an object itself is a poor representation of the original causative factor. Of course, now that the perception is the object, for this to be observed, it is also of the past, and so, surely, it goes on. So is pativedha really possible through any perceptions?

      S:>We encourage newcomers to just start their own threads in simple English and we all love the 'basic' questions - often the best!
      A: Glad to oblige
      :: Un-discussed portions of quoted text removed.
      metta
      Andy
      Hi Andy,

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sarah
      Hi Andy, ... .... S: I remember it. I taught some Japanese students who went to St George s. I lived in Kowloon at that time (in the 8os and early 90s) ... ...
      Message 35 of 35 , Jan 17, 2012
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        Hi Andy,

        --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "andyebarnes67" <andyebarnes67@...> wrote:
        >

        > No. Had some friends that went to Island School. We (my brother and I) went to St Georges in Kowloon. Dad was with the government. St Georges was the UK services school so would be no-more.
        ....
        S: I remember it. I taught some Japanese students who went to St George's. I lived in Kowloon at that time (in the 8os and early 90s)
        ...
        > As you drive towards Stanley, already on the penninsula, on the left, just before the beach, there is/was an estate of flats overlooking a grassed courtyard. That was Lion court (might still be called that) which is where we all lived. The Govt. had 3 or four estates dotted around.
        ...
        S: I did a quick search - I think it's gone as have most old Govt buildings. We also lived for a while in a lovely Govt block on the Peak with all the original brass fittings etc - redeveloped too. Stanley is very trendy these days.
        ...
        On metta -

        > > S: Hmmm.... controversial! Can there be metta now, naturally, without an "intentional process"? When there's an intentional process, it seems like a clinging to having metta. "Beginning with ourselves"? I understand the brahma viharas refer to the care and wholesome concern for others' welfare, not for our own. We already have a lot of concern for ourselves - no need to listen to a Buddha to develop self-love!
        >
        > I refer to - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mett%C4%81
        >.....first of the four sublime states (Brahmavihāras). This is love without clinging (upādāna).
        ...
        S: Exactly - one of the four brahma viharas, "love without clinging", such as friendliness, kindness now when there is an opportunity without thought of oneself or expectation of any kind.
        ...
        >
        > The cultivation of loving-kindness (mettā bhāvanā) is a popular form of meditation in Buddhism. In the Theravadin Buddhist tradition, this practice begins with the meditator cultivating loving-kindness towards themselves,[7] then their loved ones, friends, teachers, strangers, enemies, and finally towards all sentient beings."
        ....
        S: Lots of misunderstanding about metta, especially in regard to its development and the idea of cultivating it "towards oneself". See lots more in Useful Posts under "metta" if you have time.

        Now, if there is an attempt to have metta to ourselves, it's bound to be attachment - wanting "ME" to be happy.
        ...
        ....
        >
        > just as we were taught at the retreat.
        >
        > further, of interest -
        > (same source)
        >
        > The Karaniya Metta Sutta (Sn 1.8) combines both the interpersonal and radiant aspects of canonical expressions of loving-kindness.
        >
        > This is what should be done
        > By one who is skilled in goodness,
        > And who knows the path of peace:
        > ... Wishing: In gladness and in safety,
        > May all beings be at ease.
        <...>
        > According to the Pāli commentaries, the Buddha originally gave this instruction (of loving-kindness meditation) to monks who were being harassed by the tree spirits of a forest in which the monks were trying to meditate. After doing this meditation in the forest it is said that the spirits were so affected by the power of loving-kindness that they allowed the monks to stay in the forest for the duration of the rainy season."
        ....
        S: Again, it needs careful study. It is not attachment to oneself (or even metta to oneself) that is being developed. Again, dhammas as anatta. The last stanza indicates that it is the insight into nama and rupa only that leads to enlightenment. Even metta is a nama which is anatta - beyond anyone's control.
        ....
        >
        > "Ten verses in length, the Mettā Sutta extols both the virtuous qualities and the meditative development of mettā (Pali), traditionally translated as "loving kindness"[1] or "friendliness."[2] It is sometimes referred to as the Karaṇīyamettā Sutta after the opening word, Karaṇīyam, "(This is what) should be done."[3]"
        ...
        S: The development of metta, through understanding, bhavana only.
        ...

        > 'Session' refers to my sitting sessions. Where I am actively mindful of body and sensations. Mt awareness unattached to self is only at best momentary at other times. So I usually am referring to meditation when I am talking of vipassana.
        ....
        S: However, the Buddha uses vipassana in the context of insight into namas and rupas rather than 'sitting sessions" or any other activities.
        ...
        >
        > >A:When I refer to 'mindfulness' I am referring to awareness of things as they really are.
        >
        > > > > S: What exactly are these "things" now and how is "as they really are"? As you say, we need to be very precise.
        >
        > mostly, for me, being mindful of anicca. difficult, as for all, to make good use of words to describe anything beyond causality and relativity.
        ....
        S: Again, mindfulness or sati has to begin with the awareness of present namas and rupas
        ....
        >
        > > > 'Things' - everything. 'As they really are' - impermenant, empty, arising and passing away.
        > > ...
        > > S: What is "everything"? Please give me some examples of "everything" now which awareness is aware of "as they really are".
        >
        > perhaps 'anything' may have been a better choice of words.
        ....
        S: I was wanting you to give some examples of dhammas which can be understood "as they really are" now, such as seeing consciousness, hearing, visible object, sound, attachment, dislike and so on. If there is no direct understanding of realities appearing now, then there cannot be any understanding of the impermanence of these dhammas, can there?
        ...
        >
        > > I appreciate your good humour and gentle speech as we all 'quiz' you!
        >
        > Pleasure (mostly :-) ) You'll notice my habit of not making instant replies. I save emails and re-read over a few days before replying. In, this, my more base impulses can be calmed. No really, no-one has given me cause for bad-humour or angry speech - yet. I thought I was quizzing you all?
        ...
        S: I'm like you.... I take my time...... And we all quiz each other! All fellow students sharing our reflections and understanding to date....

        Again, I appreciate all your discussions here.

        Metta

        Sarah
        ======
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