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Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Vibhanga and 4 Noble Truths

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  • glenjohnann
    Dear Dieter and Sarah I really liked Dieter s approach with the cetaska s - feel as if I have learned as much from these discussions as I have from any other
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 31, 2011
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      Dear Dieter and Sarah

      I really liked Dieter's approach with the cetaska's - feel as if I have learned as much from these discussions as I have from any other attempts I have made at looking at this subject. Please do continue, if you have the inclination!

      Ann

      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "sarah" <sarahprocterabbott@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Dieter,
      >
      > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@> wrote:
      >
      > > D: not supposed to be a new project . What I intended to show was the angle of Abhidhamma view concerning the 4 Noble Truths.
      > > The material I posted was the minimum I considered to provide a clue , thinking it is up to the reader to pick up all, or this or that passage.
      > ....
      > S: I appreciated all your hard work. Do we agree that the first Noble Truth concerns all conditioned dhammas (other than lokuttara dhammas) which arise and fall away and are thus dukkha, unsatisfactory, not worth clinging to?
      > ....
      > >
      > > As much as I consider it necessary to avoid too long postings , I.M.H.O. there are issues which need context presentation .
      > > However respecting the policy I believe it is proper to turn back to comment /questions on messages .
      > ...
      > S: Maybe just broken into contexts of a page or two at most will encourage others to comment more - that's all.
      >
      > I'm rather sorry you're not pursuing the Cetasikas in Daily Life presentations and discussions - I even forget where we got up to with them... hope you change your mind and continue leading the corner! I liked the fresh approach.
      >
      > Metta
      >
      > Sarah
      > p.s Dieter, I'm not sure we have your pic in the members' photo album? As an old-time 'regular', can we encourage you and anyone else, for that matter, to add photos.
      > ===========
      >
    • Dieter Moeller
      Hi Howard (Ann , Nina ,Sarah,..) you wrote: HCW: What I have been hoping for in this series is to gain a practical understanding of what the dhammas discussed
      Message 2 of 23 , Jan 1, 2012
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        Hi Howard (Ann , Nina ,Sarah,..)

        you wrote:

        HCW: What I have been hoping for in this series is to gain a practical understanding of what the dhammas discussed in Abhidhamma correspond to in
        experience, in order to better understand the notions presented in Abhidhamma and to then see how such understanding can shed light on what we think we
        experience and what we actually experience.
        Whatever approach will best accomplish this will be fine with me, and I have no preconceived view of what that approach might be.

        D: I am pondering about what Abhidhamma is aiming at ..
        there is a strong relation with satipatthana, in particular due to the emphases is on the citta , the momentary consciousness.
        Seen this way , Abhidhamma extends the framework provided by the Maha Satipatthana Sutta.
        Its goal the same : to provide, lay down a matrix , a schedule for insight/vipassana . A schedule in that respect , that re-cognition(awareness) can take place, when the element (state) of the matrix is met by actual experience .
        We may have the possibility to link a mentioned state with our memory of life events and by penetrating each classification of the table, installation or memory of the framework /matrix could be achieved (i.e.towards 'skillful mindfulness, samma sati)

        So far my idea and its relation to practise..comments wellcome

        with Metta Dieter





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dieter Moeller
        Dear Nina (and Sarah), you wrote: N: Happy New year to you and may you continue your good work for the Dhamma. Dieter, you muisunderstood it that Sarah was
        Message 3 of 23 , Jan 1, 2012
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          Dear Nina (and Sarah),

          you wrote:

          N: Happy New year to you and may you continue your good work for the Dhamma.
          Dieter, you muisunderstood it that Sarah was 'admonishing' you.
          Sometimes we may misinterprete an Email. On the contrary, you was praising your hard work and your fresh approach to cetasikas and I
          agree with this. There were just suggestions about the length, and this is concern for the readers. Please continue on.
          --------

          D: thanks , Nina.
          You are right , misinterpretations are happening and it is good when they are clarified .
          I wrote already about the length , overview a bit longer ,then briefly with the bits ..(ideally).

          Would be nice to learn what you are thinking about my idea of approach , I wrote about in my previous mail to Howard and..

          with Metta Dieter



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • upasaka@aol.com
          Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 1/1/2012 11:27:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@gmx.net writes: Hi Howard (Ann , Nina ,Sarah,..) you wrote: HCW:
          Message 4 of 23 , Jan 1, 2012
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            Hi, Dieter -

            In a message dated 1/1/2012 11:27:58 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
            moellerdieter@... writes:

            Hi Howard (Ann , Nina ,Sarah,..)

            you wrote:

            HCW: What I have been hoping for in this series is to gain a practical
            understanding of what the dhammas discussed in Abhidhamma correspond to in
            experience, in order to better understand the notions presented in
            Abhidhamma and to then see how such understanding can shed light on what we think
            we
            experience and what we actually experience.
            Whatever approach will best accomplish this will be fine with me, and I
            have no preconceived view of what that approach might be.

            D: I am pondering about what Abhidhamma is aiming at ..
            there is a strong relation with satipatthana, in particular due to the
            emphases is on the citta , the momentary consciousness.
            Seen this way , Abhidhamma extends the framework provided by the Maha
            Satipatthana Sutta.
            Its goal the same : to provide, lay down a matrix , a schedule for
            insight/vipassana . A schedule in that respect , that re-cognition(awareness) can
            take place, when the element (state) of the matrix is met by actual
            experience .
            We may have the possibility to link a mentioned state with our memory of
            life events and by penetrating each classification of the table,
            installation or memory of the framework /matrix could be achieved (i.e.towards
            'skillful mindfulness, samma sati)

            So far my idea and its relation to practise..comments wellcome
            ----------------------------------------------
            HCW:
            Much of the Buddhist world, especiallyin Burma/Myanmar I think, views
            this as you do. I would also like to see this as the case myself, but for
            that to happen, I need to view it from the experiential, "Abhidhamma in
            daily Life" manner. I need to see it in a very practical and "practicable"
            light.
            ----------------------------------------------



            with Metta Dieter
            ================================
            With metta,
            Howard


            Seamless Interdependence

            /A change in anything is a change in everything/

            (Anonymous)


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dieter Moeller
            Hi Howard, you wrote: HCW: Much of the Buddhist world, especiallyin Burma/Myanmar I think, views this as you do. I would also like to see this as the case
            Message 5 of 23 , Jan 1, 2012
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              Hi Howard,

              you wrote:

              'HCW:
              Much of the Buddhist world, especiallyin Burma/Myanmar I think, views this as you do. I would also like to see this as the case myself, but for
              that to happen, I need to view it from the experiential, "Abhidhamma in daily Life" manner. I need to see it in a very practical and "practicable"
              light.


              D: what I can do is , to provide a base so that we discuss the framework and the definition of a,b,c,d,.. ,.
              Each participant may be a 'practicable light ' by sharing respective experiences and discussing the issues coming up, i.e. possible benefit
              to learn from eachother .. what more could such project offer?


              with Metta Dieter



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Hi Howard, I hope you had a good Chanuka festival and you must have been busy, being a cantor. I thought of you. Best wishes for the New Year. I like very much
              Message 6 of 23 , Jan 1, 2012
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                Hi Howard,
                I hope you had a good Chanuka festival and you must have been busy,
                being a cantor. I thought of you. Best wishes for the New Year.
                I like very much what you wrote about Abhidhamma, this is the right
                approach. We read about many classifications, but we have to see
                through them. Otherwise they are meaningless. The aim of the
                Abhidhamma is seeing the anattaness of realities, as you also know.
                Therefore, Abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana go together. We need
                reminders all the time.
                Nina.
                Op 1-jan-2012, om 18:24 heeft upasaka@... het volgende geschreven:

                > HCW:
                > Much of the Buddhist world, especiallyin Burma/Myanmar I think, views
                > this as you do. I would also like to see this as the case myself,
                > but for
                > that to happen, I need to view it from the experiential,
                > "Abhidhamma in
                > daily Life.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Dieter, see my mail to Howard, I was partly repeating what you said about the relationship with satipa.t.thaana. Let us not forget to understand this very
                Message 7 of 23 , Jan 1, 2012
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                  Dear Dieter,
                  see my mail to Howard, I was partly repeating what you said about the
                  relationship with satipa.t.thaana. Let us not forget to understand
                  this very moment!
                  Nina.
                  Op 1-jan-2012, om 17:56 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:

                  > Would be nice to learn what you are thinking about my idea of
                  > approach , I wrote about in my previous mail to Howard and..



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • upasaka@aol.com
                  Hi, Nina - In a message dated 1/2/2012 1:53:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, vangorko@xs4all.nl writes: Hi Howard, I hope you had a good Chanuka festival and
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jan 2, 2012
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                    Hi, Nina -

                    In a message dated 1/2/2012 1:53:19 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                    vangorko@... writes:

                    Hi Howard,
                    I hope you had a good Chanuka festival and you must have been busy,
                    being a cantor.
                    ----------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    Thanks. We had a lovely Chanukah. We also had three Christmas
                    celebrations with Christian friends and relatives! (Very ecumenical! LOL!) I hope
                    you had a very pleasant holiday season.
                    ----------------------------------------

                    I thought of you. Best wishes for the New Year.
                    ---------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    Thanks, Nina! You and Lodewijk have my warmest wishes for a peaceful
                    and healthy 2012.
                    -----------------------------------------


                    I like very much what you wrote about Abhidhamma, this is the right
                    approach. We read about many classifications, but we have to see
                    through them. Otherwise they are meaningless. The aim of the
                    Abhidhamma is seeing the anattaness of realities, as you also know.
                    ------------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    Any means leading to such wisdom is welcome to me! :-)
                    ------------------------------------------


                    Therefore, Abhidhamma and satipa.t.thaana go together. We need
                    reminders all the time.
                    -------------------------------------------
                    HCW:
                    Yes, reminders are essential! Reality is right here, always, but we
                    are usually blind to it.
                    ------------------------------------------


                    Nina.
                    =============================
                    With metta,
                    Howard


                    Look! Look!









                    /What's the need for a well if water is everywhere? Having cut craving by
                    the root, One would go about searching for what?/










                    (From the Udapana Sutta)




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • sarah
                    Hi Dieter & Howard, ... .... S: The Abhidhamma just refers to the practical understanding of the dhammas arising and falling away in our life now. I don t
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jan 5, 2012
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                      Hi Dieter & Howard,

                      --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

                      > HCW: What I have been hoping for in this series is to gain a practical understanding of what the dhammas discussed in Abhidhamma correspond to in
                      > experience, in order to better understand the notions presented in Abhidhamma and to then see how such understanding can shed light on what we think we
                      > experience and what we actually experience.
                      ...
                      > D: I am pondering about what Abhidhamma is aiming at ..
                      > there is a strong relation with satipatthana, in particular due to the emphases is on the citta , the momentary consciousness.
                      > Seen this way , Abhidhamma extends the framework provided by the Maha Satipatthana Sutta.
                      > Its goal the same : to provide, lay down a matrix , a schedule for insight/vipassana . A schedule in that respect , that re-cognition(awareness) can take place, when the element (state) of the matrix is met by actual experience .
                      ....
                      S: The Abhidhamma just refers to the "practical understanding" of the dhammas arising and falling away in our life now. I don't see the Abhidhamma as a 'framework' or 'matrix', but the actual dhammas to be directly understood now as we read. For example, seeing now is Abhidhamma, visible object is Abhidhamma, thinking about what is seen is Abhidhamma, attachment, restlessness, ignorance - not something in a list or a text, but the dhammas which can be directly known at this very moment.

                      Take uddhacca, restlessness. We know in theory that it arises with every akusala citta. Now, when the citta is rooted in lobha, there's no calm at all. The citta is agitated, disturbed, wanting more. We look at the sunset and it seems calm or we sit quietly and feel peaceful, but right understanding can gradually become more and more familiar with the different characteristics of attachment, restlessness or true calm by carefully considering and developing more and more precise understanding of these dhammas when they arise. When we wish to know the difference between them or wish to be aware of uddhacca, again it's attachment, lobha, for sure.

                      Metta

                      Sarah
                      =====
                      > We may have the possibility to link a mentioned state with our memory of life events and by penetrating each classification of the table, installation or memory of the framework /matrix could be achieved (i.e.towards 'skillful mindfulness, samma sati)
                      >
                      > So far my idea and its relation to practise..comments wellcome
                      >
                      > with Metta Dieter
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                    • Dieter Moeller
                      Hi Sarah, (and Howard) you wrote: (D: I am pondering about what Abhidhamma is aiming at .. ... S: The Abhidhamma just refers to the practical understanding
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jan 6, 2012
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                        Hi Sarah, (and Howard)

                        you wrote:

                        (D: I am pondering about what Abhidhamma is aiming at ..
                        > there is a strong relation with satipatthana, in particular due to the emphases is on the citta , the momentary consciousness.
                        > Seen this way , Abhidhamma extends the framework provided by the Maha Satipatthana Sutta. > Its goal the same : to provide, lay down a matrix , a schedule for insight/vipassana . A schedule in that respect , that re-cognition(awareness) can take place, when the element (state) of the matrix is met by actual experience )

                        S: The Abhidhamma just refers to the "practical understanding" of the dhammas arising and falling away in our life now. I don't see the Abhidhamma as a 'framework' or 'matrix', but the actual dhammas to be directly understood now as we read. For example, seeing now is Abhidhamma, visible object is Abhidhamma, thinking about what is seen is Abhidhamma, attachment, restlessness, ignorance - not something in a list or a text, but the dhammas which can be directly known at this very moment.

                        D: well , I wrote extends the framework of the Satipatthana ( i.e. the 4 great frameworks),
                        to provide you with more information about the ' matrix ' following:

                        Ven. Nyanatiloka in 'Guide through the Abhidhamma':
                        in all editions of the Abhidhamma Pitaka , the first book , the Dhammasangani, is preceded by a list of terms , called matika in Pali.
                        A close examination reveals as embracing the entire universe, classifying it under a great number of psychological , ethical and doctrinal aspects...this list is not, as it sometimes assumed merely a part of the analytical Dhammsangani, but it is the basic of the whole Abhidhamma, serving as the explicit framework...it may be compared to a mould , or matrix for casting metal, which is why that very term matrix has been choosen here for rendering the cognate Pali word matika


                        Ven Nyanaponika in Abh. Studies: ' so it is quite possible that the Buddha transmitted the gist of his knowledge to such individuals as he knew to be capable of elaborating and applying the briefly indicated by their own penetrative intellect, as for example , in the case of Ven. Sariputta.
                        This theory of ours agrees with the commentarial statement, that the Buddha transmitted to the Ven. Sariputta only the Matika , that is , the schedule of Abhidhamma.'
                        Bhikkhu Bodhi : "The 22 Tika Matikas (Triplets) and the 100 Duka-Matikas (Couplets), which comprise the quintessence of the Abhidhamma, are explained in this book"

                        Bhikkhu Narada : " ..Opening with the matika, the schedule of categories which serves as the framework for the whole Abhidhamma,

                        with Metta Dieter


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • upasaka@aol.com
                        Hi, Sarah (and Dieter) - Sarah I m in agreement with what you say in the following, at least if I follow it correctly. Among other things, you emphasize that
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jan 6, 2012
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                          Hi, Sarah (and Dieter) -

                          Sarah I'm in agreement with what you say in the following, at least if
                          I follow it correctly. Among other things, you emphasize that dhammas are
                          available to be actually experienced and not merely theoretical, obscure,
                          and unknowable. I make a couple more brief comments in context below.

                          In a message dated 1/6/2012 2:53:38 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                          sarahprocterabbott@... writes:

                          Hi Dieter & Howard,

                          --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dieter Moeller"
                          <moellerdieter@...> wrote:

                          > HCW: What I have been hoping for in this series is to gain a practical
                          understanding of what the dhammas discussed in Abhidhamma correspond to in
                          > experience, in order to better understand the notions presented in
                          Abhidhamma and to then see how such understanding can shed light on what we
                          think we
                          > experience and what we actually experience.
                          ...
                          > D: I am pondering about what Abhidhamma is aiming at ..
                          > there is a strong relation with satipatthana, in particular due to the
                          emphases is on the citta , the momentary consciousness.
                          > Seen this way , Abhidhamma extends the framework provided by the Maha
                          Satipatthana Sutta.
                          > Its goal the same : to provide, lay down a matrix , a schedule for
                          insight/vipassana . A schedule in that respect , that re-cognition(awareness)
                          can take place, when the element (state) of the matrix is met by actual
                          experience .
                          ....
                          S: The Abhidhamma just refers to the "practical understanding" of the
                          dhammas arising and falling away in our life now. I don't see the Abhidhamma as
                          a 'framework' or 'matrix', but the actual dhammas to be directly
                          understood now as we read. For example, seeing now is Abhidhamma, visible object is
                          Abhidhamma, thinking about what is seen is Abhidhamma, attachment,
                          restlessness, ignorance - not something in a list or a text, but the dhammas which
                          can be directly known at this very moment.
                          ------------------------------------------
                          HCW:
                          Yes!!
                          --------------------------------------------



                          Take uddhacca, restlessness. We know in theory that it arises with every
                          akusala citta. Now, when the citta is rooted in lobha, there's no calm at
                          all. The citta is agitated, disturbed, wanting more.
                          -----------------------------------------
                          HCW:
                          Yes, quite so.
                          ----------------------------------------

                          We look at the sunset and it seems calm or we sit quietly and feel
                          peaceful, but right understanding can gradually become more and more familiar with
                          the different characteristics of attachment, restlessness or true calm by
                          carefully considering and developing more and more precise understanding of
                          these dhammas when they arise. When we wish to know the difference between
                          them or wish to be aware of uddhacca, again it's attachment, lobha, for
                          sure.
                          ------------------------------------------
                          HCW:
                          Yes. Whenever we wish, as opposed to merely see as useful, things to
                          be other than as they are, that is tanha, and with tanha there is
                          restlessness/turmoil/disturbance to at least some degree, and consequently there is
                          suffering. (A related Hasidic saying: "Who is wealthy? Whoever is satisfied
                          with what he has.")
                          ---------------------------------------------



                          Metta

                          Sarah
                          ===========================
                          With metta,
                          Howard


                          Seamless Interdependence

                          /A change in anything is a change in everything/

                          (Anonymous)


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dieter Moeller
                          Hi Howard, you wrote: Sarah I m in agreement with what you say in the following, at least if I follow it correctly. Among other things, you emphasize that
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jan 6, 2012
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                            Hi Howard,

                            you wrote:

                            Sarah I'm in agreement with what you say in the following, at least if I follow it correctly. Among other things, you emphasize that dhammas are
                            available to be actually experienced and not merely theoretical, obscure, and unknowable

                            D: do I say something different ?
                            The framework of Abhidhamma as layed down by the matrix/schedule ( matika) is available to be actually experienced as it is by the four frameworks (body,feeling,mind and mind objects) of the Sati patthana .

                            with Metta Dieter


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • upasaka@aol.com
                            Hi, Dieter - In a message dated 1/6/2012 8:43:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, moellerdieter@gmx.net writes: Hi Howard, you wrote: Sarah I m in agreement with
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jan 6, 2012
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                              Hi, Dieter -

                              In a message dated 1/6/2012 8:43:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                              moellerdieter@... writes:

                              Hi Howard,

                              you wrote:

                              Sarah I'm in agreement with what you say in the following, at least if I
                              follow it correctly. Among other things, you emphasize that dhammas are
                              available to be actually experienced and not merely theoretical, obscure,
                              and unknowable

                              D: do I say something different ?
                              ------------------------------------------------
                              HCW:
                              No. I didn't say so, and I didn't intend to imply it.
                              -------------------------------------------------


                              The framework of Abhidhamma as layed down by the matrix/schedule (
                              matika) is available to be actually experienced as it is by the four
                              frameworks (body,feeling,mind and mind objects) of the Sati patthana .
                              -----------------------------------------------
                              HCW:
                              Yes, of course. The matrix presentation doesn't appeal to me very
                              much, but that is just a matter of taste.
                              --------------------------------------------



                              with Metta Dieter
                              ============================
                              With metta,
                              Howard


                              Seamless Interdependence

                              /A change in anything is a change in everything/

                              (Anonymous)



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Dieter Moeller
                              Hi Howard, you wrote: No. I didn t say so, and I didn t intend to imply it D: sorry, I misunderstood your message as matrix / framework being connected to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jan 6, 2012
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                                Hi Howard,

                                you wrote:

                                No. I didn't say so, and I didn't intend to imply it


                                D: sorry, I misunderstood your message as 'matrix' / 'framework' being connected to theoretical nature ..


                                H: Yes, of course. The matrix presentation doesn't appeal to me very much, but that is just a matter of taste.
                                --------------------------------------------

                                D: that of course is up to you ;-)

                                with Metta Dieter

                                :
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: upasaka@...
                                To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, January 06, 2012 9:26 PM
                                Subject: Re: [dsg] Abhidhamma Vibhanga and 4 Noble Truths



                                Hi, Dieter -

                                In a message dated 1/6/2012 8:43:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
                                moellerdieter@... writes:

                                Hi Howard,

                                you wrote:

                                Sarah I'm in agreement with what you say in the following, at least if I
                                follow it correctly. Among other things, you emphasize that dhammas are
                                available to be actually experienced and not merely theoretical, obscure,
                                and unknowable

                                D: do I say something different ?
                                ------------------------------------------------
                                HCW:
                                No. I didn't say so, and I didn't intend to imply it.
                                -------------------------------------------------

                                The framework of Abhidhamma as layed down by the matrix/schedule (
                                matika) is available to be actually experienced as it is by the four
                                frameworks (body,feeling,mind and mind objects) of the Sati patthana .
                                -----------------------------------------------
                                HCW:
                                Yes, of course. The matrix presentation doesn't appeal to me very
                                much, but that is just a matter of taste.
                                --------------------------------------------

                                with Metta Dieter
                                ============================
                                With metta,
                                Howard




                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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