Re: view 'I have no self' is wrong view
D: "...( B.T.W. : M. stands for Mitchell Ginsberg/Jinavamsa..."
Scott: Here Jinavamsa opines on 'meditation':
"Meditation in this context (as a translation of the Indic term bhavana) is the process of bringing about changes. A word I find that captures this basic idea is Cultivation. This sort of 'meditation' may be distinguished from meditation as an intellectual (conceptual) process, as a focused, topic-defined contemplation, or a detailed, thorough thinking, the way it does in a Western philosophical context (compare the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius or Descartes' Meditations). Thus, in the sense of Cultivation, a 'tranquility meditation' is the systematic cultivation of tranquility, and an 'insight meditation' is the systematic cultivation of insight. This means specifically insight into the nature (features, structure, patterns) of our own experience.
Stated generally, insight (vipassana) practice (or meditation) operates through mindfulness (sati), as tranquility (samatha) practice (or meditation) operates through concentration (samadhi). Here, by being mindful of what is ongoingly current in our life situation, we come to insight into how we are experiencing our world. In particular we may carry out this practice in various physical positions or 'forms' (seated, standing, walking/moving, and lying down). Beyond that 'formal' way of naming a meditation, we may describe it in a 'formless' way, in terms other than those concerned with our bodily posture or status. This formless meditation that is mindfulness practice or insight meditation is simply a matter of paying attention to what is most prominent in our consciousness at each moment, and doing this repeatedly, ongoingly. This is perhaps the simplest description of what this practice is..."
Scott: Please note the tell-tale, self-ridden core of his definition:
"Meditation in this context (as a translation of the Indic term bhavana) is the process of bringing about changes ... insight meditation is simply a matter of paying attention to what is most prominent in our consciousness at each moment, and doing this repeatedly, ongoingly..."
- Dear Alex,
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "truth_aerator" <truth_aerator@...> wrote:
> Dear Sarah,
> >S: Next question: what do you mean by 'namarupa'?
> Rupa is what we perceive through 5 sense organs or a memory of previous perception of it, the perception itself is nama. Nama refers to mental content cognized through the mind.
S: Here we were discussing your definition of meditation. You said that by 'meditation', you mean 'the direct study of the present moment' and that this means 'the direct study of the momentary instance of namarupa.'
The point is that by 'present moment' and 'namarupa' we may have different understandings.
Can we agree that by 'meditation, you mean the 'direct study of a nama or a rupa', in that only one can ever be known or directly studied with panna and sati at a time?
Furthermore, that rupas refer to those dhammas experienced through the five senses, the five sense bases themselves and the other (16) subtle rupas experienced through the mind-door.
Namas refer to those dhammas which can experience an object, i.e. cittas and cetasikas. '"mental content" cognized through the mind' cannot be said to be namas. The arammana (object) experienced through the mind-door may be a nama, a rupa or most usuall, a concept. Concepts are not namas.
Let's try to clarify and agree on this point first.
>A: When you've said in #120661:
> >Is there thinking and wondering now? Doubt now? Worry? Seeing? >Visible >object? This is the time for the direct study of such >realities when >they appear one at a time....
> >I'm not recommending a textbook 'study of ingredients' but a direct >understanding of the namas and rupas appearing now without any idea >of 'me' doing anything or trying to know
> It does fit what I would call "meditation".
S: I'm glad to hear that. We just need to discuss a little more (or a lot more!) on what namas and rupas are before we can fully agree on our definitions of 'meditation' here.
Thanks for the discussion, Alex.